Website ADA Compliance Webinar Recording for the June Monthly Marketing Meetup
Presenters Ken Tucker and Richard Veit – Sponsored by the Greater St Charles County Chamber, the OPO Startups, and Changescape Web
Speaker 2: Okay. So, thanks everybody for joining us today. basically wanted to, you know, just kind of go over this whole idea of what,
Speaker 2: ADA compliance or website accessibility is and, you know, talk about maybe some of the potential issues that are out there that are facing businesses. And, they probably don’t even know about this, because it hasn’t really been much on the radar. So, Richard Veit is, supposed to be joining me. It looks like maybe he’s, here right now. and so we’re going to talk about, you know, what in the world is ADA compliance and then, you know, maybe some things that you can do, to address and make sure your website is accessible.
Speaker 2: So I’m Ken Tucker, I’m the owner of a Changescape Web. And we’ve been doing these monthly marketing meetups now for, what probably close to two years now. I think so, with that, we’ll go ahead and just get started right into the topic. So ADA stands for Americans with Disabilities Act and it requires businesses and website owners to make their account, make accommodations for people with disabilities, in all their web content. So, basically, you know, one of the interesting things that, I had a chance to experience when I was in the student Senate back at Missouri State was, I led a little task force to go around campus and just evaluate, you know, accessibility, in this case, it was physical. You know, and until you do something like that, you really have no appreciation of, of, you know, the difficulties that some folks might face. You know, whether it’s when you get into an elevator where the, you know, where the buttons are located in terms of, you know, pressing, you know, what floor you want to go to, you know, let alone, you know, the convenience of ramps and things like that. Well, that also translates into, you know, what’s going on online. And so, you know, it’s easy to take for granted, but it’s also something that’s becoming more and more important.
Speaker 2: this is also referred to as website accessibility. So you might hear either ADA compliance or website accessibility,
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why it’s become so important is because even though this is a law that’s been in place for, well over a decade, there wasn’t a lot of activity from an online perspective, you know, and from a website perspective until, 2018, when the Supreme court had a judgment and they found a website owner was in noncompliance. And after that, there’s been a surge in, in cases that are starting to happen typically more on the coast. So, although I do know a couple of other marketing consultants that have had, requests submitted, on behalf of their clients saying that the web, their websites were not ADA compliant. And so it’s definitely something that, every business needs to think about. And it’s not just an, you know, it’s not a, an excuse to be ignorant of the law.
Speaker 2: And I’ll defer to Richard who can talk a lot more about that when we get to his section here in just a second, but, you know the challenging thing is there is not any hard and fast guidance on what you need to do to make your website accessible. We’ll talk about a couple of things that are fairly applicable that I think you can use maybe as, as a guide, but, you know, there’s, there are no specific guidelines, either federal state or local that specify what you need to do to make your website compliant. And honestly, it’s a little bit of a challenge because, you know, we all work hard as a marketing company, a marketing-focused company, you know, it’s important for us to have a consistency of brand, you know, and, and a certain look and feel, to the way, you know, various brands are represented.
Speaker 2: And, you know, when you, you put a lot of effort into your website to make it pop and make it represent your brand, in the most effective way. And so a lot of the things that we talk about when we talk about making your website accessible to all, changes all of that. So there’s, there’s certainly a challenge from an aesthetics perspective and from a business branding perspective, but then also a technology perspective, you know, and, and I think, there’s kind of a pervasive opinion that, you know, demonstrating that you’re making reasonable accommodations, is a good first step, even though there are no hard and fast guidelines, at least you can demonstrate that you’re trying to do the right things. and right now, because there is no overriding guidance. And I don’t know that there’s enough case law in place to really provide any guidance from that perspective, you know, really it’s up to each individual organization to decide what they want to do.
Speaker 2: So a couple of guidelines that I know of that, you can, you can certainly refer to, are going to be the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG), the latest version of that, version 2.2 was released in February of this year. And the other one is one that I’ve known about for quite a while because I used to do a lot of federal contracting, which is called Section 508 of the rehabilitation act. So Section 508 really talks about, you know, any information and computer technology has to be accessible. And if you’re doing it, if, if this is, a federal asset, you know, whether it’s a, you know, a website or information technology on behalf of the federal government, whether it’s as a contractor, or an agency like the EPA or department of agriculture or whatever, such and 508 certainly applies. And so we were required, you know, when we were developing software and websites for, the federal government in, in my past life, to make sure that everything we did was, you know, five Oh eight compliance.
Speaker 2: The other guideline is the web content accessibility guidelines. And, there’s just an awful lot here. I mean, you can, you can go through a really big laundry list of things that, entails this, this set of guidelines. Here’s just a snapshot from their website. This is just the table of contents. And so you can see going through this whole list can be pretty daunting. And so when you take that and you look at things like, okay, does my website do anything to cause seizures or physical reactions you know, is it easy to be navigated, by somebody who might be visually impaired and, you know, visual impairments, you know, include things like colorblindness, you know, or the ability to not see the contrast in different colors. and it makes it very difficult to navigate around the website, let alone, if somebody is just, you know, completely blind and they can’t see anything, you know, they’re, they still, you know, do you want to be able to use websites
Speaker 2: Especially in a situation we find ourselves in now, you know, where, it’s, it’s not safe for a lot of people to get out in public. They have to turn to online resources to continue to do business and, and, you know, interact with the businesses that they need to work with, or, or even the, you know, federal state or local agencies. So it’s important to think about, you know, some of the things that you can do to, from a technology perspective to assist here. So you can have zoom features, you can have features on your website that allow contrast, every picture on your website actually, should have what’s called alt text. That’s what is telling the search engines, but also people with disabilities what that picture is. The search engines can’t see what that picture is. They know there’s a picture there, and they see what it’s titled, but they don’t know what it’s about.
Speaker 2: So you use the alt text feature to tell the search engines what that picture is. Well, that same feature is also picked up when you, you know, put in place, a website accessibility program, to help somebody who’s visually impaired, know what that picture is. And so, and by the way, that’s also good for search engine optimization. another feature is text to speech, and having the ability to turn that on or off is an important aspect. So, again, I’ll, I’ll defer more to Richard on this here in just a second, but, you know, there have been, starting to be a flurry of legal cases that are popping up especially much more on the coast. I mean, I don’t think it’s happened here in the Midwest quite as much yet, but, you know, that’s not to say that it’s not going to start to pick up. and, you know, just in 2000, 19 alone, 10,000 websites were sued andthe damages can be fairly significant. if somebody finds your website not to be compliant and like GDPR, which is a privacy guideline, you know, it, that, that requires a notice. If somebody finds that you’re in, in noncompliance with the GDPR guidelines, for security, best practices and personal privacy best practices, the ADA law does not require any prior notification before a lawsuit can be filed.
Speaker 2: So, you know, when you look at your website, I mean, there are a lot of different things to your website. It’s not just the web pages, it’s every picture that’s on there. You know, if you have any audio content, if you have videos embedded in there from your YouTube channel or even videos uploaded directly to your website, all of those things are assets basically on your website that you need to consider are those accessible to everybody. And so, you know, you have to go through an inventory, you know, there’s a lot of, guidelines and, and I mean, I’m sorry, there’s a lot of assets you have to go through. there may be different versions of the code that you need to go through to render your website appropriate, you know, on a mobile device versus a desktop or a tablet display.
Speaker 2: So, you know, just going through all of that, can be a little bit of a daunting, daunting process. If you try to do this, you know, with some kind of a manual process. But the key thing is, you know, if you do go through this and you have, you know, website accessibility, whether it’s a toolset that you install on your website to take care of a lot of this for you, or whether it’s, you know, something that you go through and do on a manual process yourself, it does help with search engine optimization. And so, Google picks that up. It recognizes that, you are doing things to make your website accessible by everybody. And it also keeps you from being discounted by people who literally cannot do business with you because they cannot interact with your website. So it keeps you from losing potential customers that could be, you know, wonderful customers for you. So, from that perspective, it’s, it’s a really important thing to consider with that. I’m going to turn it over to Richard. Richard, I’m going to unmute you.
Speaker 3: Are you there, Richard Yeah, I’m here.
Speaker 2: Okay, perfect. Okay. So I’m going to stop sharing my screen for the time being, and, let’s see, Richard, you, I don’t know. Do you want to go ahead and, can you, share your screen
Speaker 3: I don’t need to – I mean, if you want to, if you blow me up, that’s fine, but I don’t have any makeup on, so maybe, maybe this is the perfect guys. Okay. So, as, as Ken said, I’m, I’m an attorney and have been, so for 35 years and licensed in Missouri, Illinois, and California, and I’ve observed, friends, have done a little research on this law and, and kind of, looked up some of the trends and I’m going to try to help you make a cost-benefit analysis, but you’re going to make that on your own. So I’ll start with the idea that I’m at a dinner party and somebody says, can I be sued for that Well, the answer is you can be sued for anything. If somebody can hire an attorney or knows how to make something legible and knows how to get it to court and is willing to pay a filing fee.
Speaker 3: So I know they would talk about Kanye DC for that. I think we’ll talk more about, will I be sued for that And if I am, what would happen and why would I be sued, on, on that. But I’m going to run over a few things to just realize that let you know that this has been around for a really long time, but some lawyers and you can have your opinion about them have, have, really as of late come up with ways to make money. And I will point out that in this coronavirus situation, all legal practices are down. Lawyers are finding, are looking for business. when courts are shut down, people don’t have problems. They don’t see attorneys, or if they don’t have the money to pay attorneys, they don’t retain attorneys. people aren’t driving there. Aren’t auto accidents. There’s a lot of factors involved, but, but business for most lawyers is down.
Speaker 3: So they’re looking for stuff. So they’ll give you a brief history and I’m going to try not to go over too much what Ken did. So I might talk a little fast, but this all started in 73 with the rehabilitation act of 1973. That’s actually the first civil rights that, gay, prevented discrimination on basis of disability. And a lot of people aren’t familiar with the education for all handicapped children act, which they’ve changed the name to that. That’s the ID EA, but 1990 was the watersheds for the Americans with disability act has been around for three decades. I mean, it predates the internet, at least the common use of it in 1998. And that’s where you hear section five Oh eight, where you’re Ken talk about that. That’s when President Clinton signed amendments to the real period bill station law that requires the federal government’s electronic information to be accessible to people with disabilities.
Speaker 3: What that means that regardless of lawsuits, if you’re going to be dealing with the fads, you’re going to have to be ADA compliant with your web suit website. If you’re going to try, want to try to get any business with them in 2006, the Federation for the blind, to target. And that basically said that websites are considered places of public accommodation. So you’ve got that. And, and, and then you got in 2012, the association for the deaf sued Netflix, which required Netflix to put captions on everything. Now, there’s been a lot of interesting lawsuits and they’re the ones that get, get the publicity are the big ones. and it’s interesting to hear about them. Beyonce was sued, Winn Dixie was sued, you know, Nike, Domino’s, Fox News, Burger King, Blue Apron, CVS Pharmacy, Hobby Lobby. All of those were sued for people that were sight impaired in one way, or the other Harvard was sued, successfully by somebody who was deaf.
Speaker 3: So, so it’s not just sight. You have to deal with all of that. What’s going on. Well, a quote from somebody that said a Philadelphia attorney, quite frankly, it’s become a cottage industry among plaintiff’s attorneys. They will send out demand letters based on publicly available website, where they can run a rudimentary test. But that means that they’re actually looking, it’s not somebody who just happened to come upon your website and had an issue it’s it’s, it’s, lawyers, and they can hire law students, or they can hire paralegals. And they can just re you know, run through the whole country, looking for websites that are not ADA compliant and decide whether to Sue. And when Ken talks about the coast, New York and California, there’s a lot going on in Florida. But before you think Missouri is immune, as a historian of lawsuits, there was a time where there were a lot of facts, lawsuits, and misery.
Speaker 3: And what there was, there is there’s a law against unsolicited facts. Facts is being sent. There is a penalty provision, $500 per fax, and, and people who weren’t aware of this people who are marketing themselves were getting sued. And there were certain attorneys that would just love when they got a fax, because they didn’t have to find a plaintiff. They could just bring a lawsuit. And I know attorneys in Missouri who sued people because they got a piece of paper on their fax machine and got money. So when you think of being sued, you think I got to hire an attorney, or maybe I have to hire an attorney. If you’re an LLC or corporation, you cannot represent yourself in court. That’s the unauthorized practice of law. By the way, side note, if you’re operating under any name, you need to have a fictitious name licensed.
Speaker 3: So if you don’t have the word LLC, next to your name, but you’re using some sort of name in a marketing strategy, it’s real simple to file with the secretary of state’s office. You could probably do it yourself, but that’s just a legal protection for you getting in trouble with the government. Here’s what happens. All I have to do is prove that your site is not compliant and they win, and they get a consent decree or some sort of agreement where you say, I will become compliant. But the kicker is, is you have to pay their attorney’s fees. So they can come up with a lawsuit, you know, with a word or some other document changed. The name of the parties pay a filing fee, use a representative plaintiff that they have and, and bring the lawsuit, bill, bill, their hours, you know, how can you confess them
Speaker 3: No, two 5,300 an hour. You know, they’re basically cloning a previous lawsuit, but add up, and these attorney’s fees could be 2000 to 20,000 and you haven’t even paid your own attorney. So when you do your cost-benefit analysis, you’re going to think, maybe I won’t be sued and maybe you won’t, but if you’re out there and your search is being optimized, somebody’s looking might be looking for you. Oh, I can’t tell you how not get sued. Precisely. Ken can help you on that. And that still can’t might not stop you from being sued. But imagine somebody looking to you comes across your website and says, nevermind, that case is a little bit harder. I’ll just move on to the next person’s website. So normally when you think of your website, you think you want people to join you. You want them to be excited about your website.
Speaker 3: you want them to do more business with you. I’m suggesting that those people who are hunting for your website, and there was a, a sight-impaired woman who was the plaintiff and two to 177 people. Okay. Co somebody looking at your website. My suggestion is one is to say, you’re ADA compliant somewhere on the site where they catch it, say it, you know, whatever technical verbiage that you’re comfortable with could be provided to, by whoever does your marketing. Who’s familiar with this. They could cite the section five Oh eight, imagine a, a law student or a paralegal searching all these websites and one pops up. And it has some sort of denotation that is ADA compliant. He moves on, or she moves on to the next site. So one is to say it is that, you know, another is, is to offer, you know, if anybody has any issues who to direct them to you, that may not help you, by the way.
Speaker 3: like, like, like Ken said, you don’t need to have prior notice or anything. They can still just Sue you, but it looks like you’re starting to mount some sort of defense in there. So if you have no noncompliance, you can mention, it’s been reviewed, who it’s been reviewed by, like, you’re basically, and it’s a cost-benefit analysis, but you want a situation where somebody’s, you know, running through, you know, a thousand websites and hour comes across yours and says, nevermind and goes to the next one. so that’s kind of, all I really wanted to, talk, talk about it is because damages don’t have to be proven, and this is similar with a lot of federal laws, is that, you just have to show that they are not compliant with like a civil rights. you know, the ACLU brings these actions.
Speaker 3: You’ve heard of the this group called the Westboro Baptist church. They’d bring a lot of lawsuits about protesting and all, all they, all eight were there, basically all they’re doing is trying to find that somebody, some law somewhere is noncompliant. And if they succeed, they get their attorney’s fees and that’s all they need. That’s all they want. They don’t need punitive damages. They don’t need, they may say they want remedial action. You may have to take remedial action, but, but they just want their attorney’s fees. And at 450 to $300 an hour, probably a lot of you and your business are probably not able to bill at that rate, but lawyers are able to have those types of fees, not questioned by, by a court when they succeed. so you definitely want to do, do that. I believe that’s kind of the, extent, cause I think, I can help you make it compliant, that that’s Ken’s job or some other professionals job, but I think he should say it’s compliant and I think he should be compliant. And, with that, can I think I turned it back over to you.
Speaker 2: Okay, great. Thanks Richard. Yeah. You know, I mean, there are tools that, are available to a lot of different people where, I mean, we can run a website through, an, you know, an ADA compliance tool. We’ve got those tools. I don’t do that because I don’t go chase the, this kind of a business. we do offer it as a service obviously, but I do have a tool where I could go in and take a look at any website and show that it’s not compliant. And if I’ve got it, I guarantee you, there are a lot of other people who have it. And the other thing is, you know, there are also tools that are out there that, you know, you can pick any industry you want. you know, you could, let’s say you wanted to go after roofers. You can, there are these tools that are referred to a scrapers where you can go out there and find, you know, you can type in a city and a niche or, or a keyword phrase and find all of the businesses in that city that are of that industry or niche or keyword.
Speaker 2: So st. Louis roofers, for example, and you’ve got all of their websites, you’ve got their contact information, that’s publicly available. It could be a phone number. It could be address, could be an email address. and you can, you know, there are people out there who could literally go through and look at all of those websites, run those through, you know, a compliance analysis tool and, you know, make a determination about whether a website’s ADA compliant or not, and, and whether or not they wanted to move forward with that. In some cases, marketers are gonna, you know, go out and try to market to you to say, Hey, we can solve this problem for you. I don’t know if they would ever reach out to any attorneys that are out there to say, Hey, here’s a batch of websites that we found that are not compliant. I don’t know if there’s anybody who would do anything like that. I don’t know if that’s, you know, an acceptable practice or not, but the reality is there are a lot of different ways people can find this out. So I’m going to go back and share my screen again.
Speaker 2: Okay. So, so we, we do have a solution that’s on our website. Can you, can you see the slide now
Speaker 1: No,
Speaker 2: Hang on just a second. I lost everybody because of the meeting controls. Laurie, can you see my slide Okay, cool. Okay. So, you can go to like our website, or we put this on the Chamber’s website as well. We’ve got this little icon here, that, that you could click on and it goes and opens up a little panel here that gives you accessibility controls. And so you can go check that out and, and see how that works. I’ll do a little bit of a demonstration here, so I’m going to change, The screen I’m sharing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay. So now, you should see my website and, what, what I can do is I can click on this icon, open it up, turn on the text to speech feature. So now,
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I can click on www.changescapeweb.com.
Speaker 2: [Text to Speech feature] Welcome to www.changescapeweb.com. So it rains the text, the tier strategy and system take your marketing to the next level. We’ll help you develop a marketing strategy.
Speaker 2: So that’s a, that type of a feature. You can change the display. this is really helpful for contrast related issues just by clicking and toggling. You can magnify the screen. You can change the spacing of the text again, you know, from a branding perspective, this is something that I wouldn’t want to spend a lot of money paying a web developer to develop this so that there was this capability built-in. But, you know, having a tool like this on your website is certainly nice. Here’s one that highlights the links. That’s going to help somebody with navigation-related issues, cursor, headlines, you know, just a series of different features. the other thing is you can, put together a policy in place here that, you know, shows that you’re, that you’re trying to acknowledge that, and that can be, something that you put on your website. you know, and then one of the things that we do when we’re working with,
Speaker 2: A business on this is, you know, a real easy thing to overlook is captioning videos that are on your, you know, if you put a video on YouTube, you can, I mean, YouTube has facilities to make it pretty easy to caption those. but you have to do it. Facebook is the same way. If you post a video natively to onto Facebook, Facebook will give you the ability to go in and generate, the, the captions for you. Now you need to go in and clean them up because it’s not perfect because it’s, it’s basically done with artificial intelligence, but, you know, doing that, is a demonstration of the fact that your ADA compliance. So if you have any videos on your website, you know, as you work through the policy for compliance, you, you want to make a statement, you know, have we gone through for every picture that’s on my website, have I tried to do this all text so that people can see what that picture is or know what that picture is through, through, a text to speech VR, because they can’t literally see it because of their visual impairments and, you know, and likewise, have you, if you’ve got videos embedded on your website, have you gone through the process of, captioning, all of those, and just a statement of the fact that you recognize there are some limitations, but that you’re working on, it is a demonstration that you are trying to comply.
Speaker 2: And as Richard said, that may be enough to deter somebody, because there are plenty of other businesses that are out there that have done absolutely nothing that are going to be much easier targets. So with that, that’s really, you know, kind of wrapping up, the patient presentation we have today. So I’m going to, open up, everybody’s Mike, and, if you guys have any, questions, you know, let’s go ahead and talk about those. Now you have any questions. Yeah. Does anybody have any questions Laurie, you had, you’ve gone to some chamber functions, you know, some Nash, you know, chamber organizations where they’ve talked about this. I mean, do you have a feel for what, what other parts of the country are starting to see the, you know, activity related to this
Speaker 4: It’s just, like you said, the coast mainly the California side.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 4: I do have a question. Okay. are there any funds available from the federal government, to make your website ADA compliant Or is this something that you have to purchase yourself
Speaker 2: As far as I know, there are no funds there’s actually, I mean, you know, part of the challenge with, from a federal perspective, there’s, you know, there are there, I think there are some initiatives to say that certain businesses don’t need to be held to a, to the ADA compliance standard, but those have never gotten any real traction that would take, you know, an act of Congress to, to do something. you know, the reality is a lot of small businesses. Look, I get it. I mean, you know, you, you want to spend your money to generate, leads and customers and, and, you know, may not want to spend money on, you know, just basically mitigating risk of lawsuit. So it is a difficult challenge and, you know, small businesses, you know, a lot of times, don’t have very big budgets to invest. So it’s a real challenge. I don’t know of any source of money that’s available out there.
Speaker 2: Lisa, it looks like you have a question.
Speaker 4: Yes, I do. I was waiting to make sure I wasn’t stepping on someone. can you speak a little bit about, how the law applies to websites that may connect to another company to provide services through our site and where that, ADA accessibility, liability stands when the, the services provided through our site, but the customer may have to log in to get to it. So who is responsible for ensuring the accessibility at that point
Speaker 3: I’m going to just jump in here. This is Richard and Ken probably might even have some different experience. So, the website is considered a public accommodation based on, on the law. So it would be who’s ever responsible for that public accommodation. And there’s the potential of what’s known as joint and several liability. it’s not unusual for more than one entity to be responsible for something. And either one can be held liable, they might both get sued. but, if, if, if you imagine that a website that you’re responsible as much like a landlord is responsible for a premise, it’s just, they’re just going to try to, figure out who’s who’s the landlord or the website. And, but they could also Sue the tenant that the tenant has some responsibilities. So like, Ken, I don’t know if you had something that you had some thoughts on that I know you’re not a lawyer, so you won’t be given a legal opinion, but maybe some thoughts about the industry,
Speaker 2: You know, I don’t see any consensus. I mean, this is, this is an area of concern, I think for a lot of people who do anything related to online marketing and website design because we don’t the answers. We don’t have hard and fast guidance. you know, we don’t know what we can do to fully protect ourselves or our, our customers. you know, I think right now, because of the ambiguity, I think just trying to demonstrate that you’re trying to take some steps and you acknowledge, you know, that it’s something that’s necessary as an important first thing, but from a legal protection perspective, I have no idea. Did they have any sides limits other company, under 10 employees or under X amount of dollars in sales already exempt Or is that all in a fog All in a fog
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don’t believe that there is a, is like a safe Harbor for the size of your company and this a federal suit in Florida and owner of a footwear store at a mall with sued. I can’t imagine that they had a lot of employees. It wasn’t a, it wasn’t a thing.
Speaker 2: All right. Any other questions
Speaker 2: Okay. Well, Richard, thanks so much for joining us. I mean, you know, I, I appreciate your insights into what’s going on, you know, from, from a legal perspective, I can help with some technology considerations and, you know, maybe some marketing best practices, but, when it comes to the legal aspect, this is something that concerns me. And actually it kind of scares the daylights out of me because I just don’t know what, what’s possible. And, you know, so thanks for,
Speaker 3: Let me, let me get, let me end by thanks. Burberry listening, but I also should probably do a disclaimer that nothing I, I said should be construed as giving any specific, legal advice to anybody, on this, in this, in this meeting.
Speaker 2: Nope, absolutely. Okay. Well, thanks, everybody stay safe. And, you know, we don’t have a topic for the, the next monthly marketing meetup. So if you guys have any thoughts on that, I’d love your feedback. a couple of topics that we had talked about here, I’ll just share, a different screen here.
Speaker 2: So we had talked about, the use of, using content marketing for leads and sales. that’s basically based on a book that, I was coauthor of that, actually got to be a bestseller on Amazon, back in, the fall, which was kinda cool, and how that can help you improve your search rankings, online display ads, which would be a little bit different than what, Jeff Wappel from DDI did a few months back. It’d be a little bit more of a broad brush on, you know, what display advertising is all about, how that works. you know, maybe another topic that, has been thrown out there is what you could do if you can’t afford search engine optimization, search engine optimization can be a pretty expensive proposition and, you know, that doesn’t, and not every business needs, search engine optimization, but they do probably need some kind of a strategy to generate leads, or, at least, make sure that whoever’s visiting their website goes on to become a customer. And so, you know, those are some topics. If you guys have any thoughts, let us know. we do meet the second Wednesday of every month from 1130 to 1230.