Recent study came out late January, and it was actually talking about how people find local businesses, and it's still 85% plus on Google.
45% of people who are looking for a top local business in 2025 used ChatGPT.
It's not just about showing up, it's about really demonstrating to people that you are the right solution for them.
Hello everyone, thanks for joining us today for this episode of the Marketing Guides for Small Businesses podcast. My name is Paul and I'm joined by Ken Tucker from Changescape Web, Ian Cantle from Outsource Marketing, and Jeff Steck from Tolarica Marketing Systems, and we are your marketing guides. So today we're going to talk about a major shift that's happening in search, and most businesses probably aren't even aware of it. They may be aware of AI, but not how it's affecting search to the extent that it is. It's— for years, SEO was really— it was all about keyword rankings. You know, rank higher, get more traffic, get more business. But Google isn't just ranking pages anymore, and neither are the LLMs. They're ranking credibility. They're prioritizing experience, expertise, authority, and trust. And it's called EAT, E-E-A-T. And in this age of AI-driven search, it's not enough to optimize your website. You have to build authority across the web other websites, podcasts, reviews, media, social conversations. We've used the term omnichannel marketing before. Think of it as omnichannel publishing, because just sticking content on your website isn't going to do it, and just sticking it on your social media channels isn't going to do it. And I'm not saying you shouldn't optimize your website or completely ignore keyword rankings. What I am saying is that if you don't rank across the web, you're probably going to find it extremely difficult to rank for the keywords you do want to rank for. So today we're breaking down E-A-T, why it matters more than ever, why keyword rankings alone are not enough, and how you can build real digital authority that gets you recommended. So Ken, start with you. Let's dive in here. What is E-A-T and why is Google prioritizing it more than keyword rankings?
Yeah, I mean, we've talked about E-A-T in the past. That's E-A-T— expertise. Let me start over. Experience, expertise, authority, and trust.
Expertise—
I, uh, I'm sorry, Experience, I like to add to the beginning because the other 3 I think are really closely tied together. Experience has to do with the experience of somebody, you know, when they land on your website, how easy it is to navigate, how fast does it load, things like that. The rest really starts to reflect the content about your business that's understood, you know, from the website, but then all the other supporting factors. Google, recognize something critical. Keywords can be manipulated and they are. They have been for as long as SEO has been around as a discipline or not a discipline, if you will. It's harder to fool real-world authority. And AI won't tolerate it. So AI looks at especially the authority and trustworthiness of what's going on. And they look at things like— and this pertains to Google as well because Google's adopted AI in their search from the classic search algorithms that they've had. Who is saying this? Where else have they said it? What other part— what other websites is this being said on by that person? Do other trusted resources reference them? And is there any real-world proof behind those claims? So if, you know, really AI is really using this to build and surface credibility about a business. So it's, you know, it's been an acronym that's been thrown out there and talked about for quite a while. With AI, it's definitely become much more nuanced and, you know, it's taken on a even a bigger, a more important role.
All right, anybody else want to add to that?
I always like to add controversy to everything we do. So, um, I, I've— this is a subject that comes up a lot, right? And, and there's so much buzz about what we're talking about, and there's a lot of crap out there, but the crap is growing faster than the truth, I find. And so a recent, a recent study came out And what I mean by that is that there's crap related to this topic and a lot of buzz that is true but isn't true for local businesses in the same way yet. Recent study came out late January and it was actually talking about how people find local businesses and it's still 85% plus on Google, not Google AI per se.
What's the reason for that? You might want to check the connection settings in Google.
Yes, I got somebody's—
They're listening. My goal is to get all of the AIs to start talking today.
But all I was going to say was, like, this hasn't— we've been talking about EAT now for— when did EAT come out? The original? Years, years ago, I think. Not EAT, right? We've been talking about it for, like, I want to say 6 years or something like that. Like, it's—
I would have guessed It's been a long time. Time flies when you're having fun, huh?
Yeah.
But the point is, is that yes, there's new tools that are in play, but to do well on them, it's nothing new. It's you, you gotta do what has been successful all this time, which is, which we'll be talking about today. But I just want people to know that because I know there's so much buzz, there's so much noise, and I see businesses abandoning their focus on ranking on Google, which is the most ridiculous thing I've heard of when 85+% of people are still searching on there. And if you're not ranking in the top 3 positions, you're losing 70% of all clicks still, right? So I want people to understand that because I'm so passionate about it. I hate how statistics are misused, right? So there we go. My soapbox is done. Now, now you guys jump in.
Yeah, so Ian, I'm gonna refute that a little bit. Awesome, I love it. What you've always done to rank well on Google is as important as it's ever been.
Absolutely.
But what people do not catch and are completely missing is the importance of AI changing the game. And it's a new layer that needs to be added on top of that. And there are several other statistics that'll refute what you said. You know, Google, there's a balkanization of search. It's being— there are more searches being done on more platforms than there have been in a very long time. And you say it doesn't roll down as much to local search. I absolutely agree. But here's a stat that every business needs to know about. 45% of people who are looking for a top local business in 2025 used ChatGPT.
Wow. Can I, can I just— we're stats people, right?
Mm-hmm.
The one thing I find about that stat that's misused, and I'm not saying you're misusing it at all, Ken, because you were very precise in how you said that. But I, I've actually seen in articles where they quote that stat and they say 45% of local searches for small businesses are on chat. And I'm like, no, the statistic that's being quoted is that last year, 45% of people who they surveyed use chat at some time to search for a local business. Like, it's a radically different stat. So I just want people to understand that.
Right.
Yeah, I think what's going on is—
And I'm not refuting the importance of AI or showing up on it. That's not what I'm trying to say.
No, I understand. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think what's happening is, you know, people are testing the AI platforms and they're going and they're doing that search. And 45%, let's say, okay, you know, go and look for a top local plumber in, you know, in a market. You know, the next thing they're 90% probably doing, they're going to Google to confirm and validate that that plumber exists and how to find them and contact them and probably to read some Google reviews. So there's a symbiotic relationship that's going on. You know, your reviews, and we're going to get a lot more into this, but, you know, reviews are massive. When it comes to this EEAT, especially the EEAT part of it, and especially the T part of it.
I just want to go back to this question, Paul. I think this is a really great question to lead off with to get everyone on the same page about what E.E.A.T. with 2 Es is.
I'm hungry.
And that's, you know, it's not just about showing up. It's about really Demonstrating to people that you are the right solution for them. And I always use the cocktail party analogy. You know, fundamentally, Google's a question and answer machine. So imagine you're at a cocktail party and somebody came up to you and you said, hey, can you tell me why I should choose you as my plumber, emergency plumber repair? You're not going to go, well, you know, because— you know, you're going to say, well, let me understand your problem. What are you looking for? What's the issue? You're going to have a conversation.
Yeah.
And, and that's the expertise and the authoritativeness and trustworthiness. You're going to demonstrate it through having a conversation. You're not going to demonstrate it by just pounding at them, well, we're the best emergency plumber in town because we've been in business for 10 years and we've had, you know, you know, no, you're, you're going to demonstrate it by saying, yeah, we understand how to unclog a drain. We understand what to do when a pipe's leaking. You know, tell me about your problem. Let's, let's get into a little more about what's going on. How can we solve it? And you demonstrate the authoritativeness and the trustworthiness and your expertise through how you interact with people. And that's That's where I think we're going to get into it. And probably even the next question is where things fall apart is when it just becomes algorithmic and you're just trying to pound an answer back at somebody that isn't necessarily serving either of you very well.
And I just want to wrap up my question here just to point out one thing that's really super important, and that is being published everywhere. You know, piggybacking off what Jeff said, you know, I mean, that, that helps to establish the expertise, authority, and trust pieces. And that's really what we're talking about, which is the difference maker that most small businesses have no clues about. Honestly, 80% of marketing agencies have no clues about the importance of this and what's going on right now. It's always been a big factor, but it's more important now than it's ever been. And if you're in a competitive market, you know, there are extra layers that you have to add on to be successful.
All right. I think everyone missed my intro. I did not mean to imply that you can ignore Google, and it's not affecting small businesses as much yet, but Google is changing how it establishes authority and trust. You used to be able to build authority and trust by publishing content on your website, on your social media platforms, that's just not enough anymore. And it's like the old cliché, don't wait till you're thirsty to start digging your well. If you're a small business owner and you're completely ignoring this, you're going to get caught off guard by competitors who are not.
It's a great quote, Paul.
I love that. So, Jeff, going into you, so why are simple keyword rankings no longer enough? And you kind of touched on this.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's because simple keyword rankings are a reflection of the past. They were where Google and the other search engines were 15, 20 years ago now, when you could game the system, when all you had to do was stuff a bunch of keywords on a page and you'd show up because it was just counting how many times you had the keyword. And then it got more sophisticated and it started analyzing content and semantic intent. And I think that's a key point that everyone needs to realize is the game is changing rapidly because the technology is changing rapidly, and that's enabling all kinds of new technologies. So all these things that we're talking about now in terms of, you know, deep analysis and semantic intent and all the linkage back and forth between everything and building, you know, knowledge graphs— this is stuff that was a pipe dream 20 years ago because we just didn't have the processing horsepower or the storage to be able to do it. If we did, it was super expensive. So the technology is evolving. And if you're still doing the same old things you were doing, well, you know, 10 years ago I just built a page that had the keywords on it and I ranked. I
I don't understand why I'm not ranking anymore.
That's why.
Why? Because the technology is changing. And with this new technology comes the capability for the tools, and especially with AI, to analyze more deeper intent and make value judgments on authority, you know, the EAT acronym, on the authoritativeness, the trustworthiness, and the expertise. So that means you need to tune your content and what you do, which you should have been doing anyway if you really wanted to serve your customers well, but you've got to tune all the material that you put out to play in that world, not just play in the world of, you know, 10, 15 years ago when all you had to do was work on keywords. If you haven't changed, you haven't come along, you're not taking advantage of everything else that's out there, you're missing the boat, you know, big time. AI overviews are huge. That statistic that we talked about earlier, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But the point is people are going to ChatGPT or other AIs and asking their questions there and then probably going to Google or maybe they're asking multiple AIs and, you know, comparing results. But if you're not on the AIs, you're missing that boat right away. And then all the other real estate, all the other places you can use to demonstrate expertise, authority, and trust, you, you've just got to take advantage of them. Why would you not? If you had 10 places where you could tap into the, the algorithm, uh, if you had 10 places you could tap into the system that's going to show you to potential customers, why would you only want to do one of them, right? You need to really work on the featured snippets that go along with your web pages. Think of them as a little mini banner for why somebody should click on the result if they're actually seeing the result to click on, right? That's a little advertisement. Take advantage of video carousels, places where you can pop up probably high up on the search page now because a lot of people just want to look at the 2-minute video. And when I say video carousel, I don't mean like have 20-minute, you know, dissertations. The real quick-hit answers— people are looking for answers to their questions. If you can answer it in a 30-second, 1-minute, you know, maybe a couple-minute video, take advantage of that. Show up in the map pack. You know, if you have an address, it's easier. If you don't have an address, be a service area business. But focus on showing up on Google Business Profile, your Bing profile. And by the way, your Bing profile can now sync from your Google Business Profile, so there's no reason not to have one on Bing. Um, and then be in the other places people are going looking for answers to questions, which means the search engines and the AIs are going looking for the answers to questions. And that's places like Reddit threads and, and core results. Um, so you got to take advantage of all the places you can. And again, it's not just stuffing keywords, but it's demonstrating your expertise, authority, and trust by truly answering the questions that people have. You know, if you don't get a click, you don't get a visitor to your website, you don't get the business. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe you're showing up in the AI and that's good enough and somebody will call you from it. But you've just got to show up everywhere. And keep in mind that it's not just about trying to get clicks with keywords anymore. It's showing up in the other places people are. so that they can find you. So yeah, keyword density, well, that's, boy, that was like last century maybe, even, I don't know, probably not 26 years ago, but it was the old days. Now it's about, you know, can you demonstrate that you know what you're talking about and you're trustworthy and you can solve people's problems? That's what we gotta take it back to.
And, you know, video is huge. And let's not forget that Google owns YouTube. And you have no way to know with 100% certainty where your prospects are looking for a product or service, which goes back to why you have to be everywhere all at once. So, Ian, how does publishing content outside your own website improve EEAT? I'm glad I coincidentally gave this question to you.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's all about building authority, right? So it's, it's one of the key ways that you can create, first of all, backlinks to your website. Right? Like, I don't want people to get the idea that their website isn't important. It's still the—
Oh, absolutely not.
It's still the most important property that you own.
You—
it's actually the only property you own online. So don't, don't abandon that. But yeah, it's all about building authority. So it helps build your reputation. It creates signals, right? Authoritativeness and trust. This is really important. It creates corroboration. of what you're saying on your website, on your LinkedIn profile, on your Facebook page. It's all feeding signals into both SEO, Google search, Bing search, all the AI platforms that can find it, right? It earns legitimate links and mentions. And that's really important. It's becoming more and more important. Excuse me. And it demonstrates real-world experience and expertise, right? If other people are are allowing your information and your expertise to be posted on their platform. It's showing that they're relinquishing control of that, just like when we have guests on our podcast, right? We're saying these are, these are good quality people that you guys who are listeners right now should be listening to because they have particular experience and expertise in an area that we think is important. So we want to share that with you. So again, these, these are areas that you know, having content outside of your website like guest articles, podcast interviews, YouTube appearances, local news features, super powerful, right? Local news is still very highly valued. High authority websites. If you can get on an education or a government site or platform, super powerful. Industry publications, LinkedIn long-form content is still important. So all of these different Exterior platforms and postings and visibility can really help you from an authority standpoint.
And the point you made about your website being the only property you really own, I think some people forget that you do not own your Facebook page. You do not own your Google Business Profile. I mean, Google will go on a tangent and start suspending profiles for no reason. And they've done it.
Good luck trying to get it back. Yeah, because you're dealing with Their AI systems.
Or stuck in verification loops, which I see a lot of today.
So that's, that's a good point to remember. Ken, moving on. Why do AI search engines care so much about offsite content?
AI models are trained on the broader web, not just your website. So historically, you know, there's been a lot of emphasis put on just what's going on your website to help you rank. With AI, and this includes Google. Google's using AI, and I have an example of it just from last night. But they, you know, the AI is looking at brand mentions, citations, citations in the form of, you know, not only being named in directories but also being cited, you know, from other sites. Reviews are becoming, you know, have always been important. There is so much more importance now on reviews than ever. If you don't have an always-on review strategy, you need to do that immediately. That's the first takeaway you need to do right away. And don't just rely on Google, although Google reviews are still, you know, the powerhouse if you can only pick one place to go. But transcriptions, you know, I mean, if you're on a podcast or you're on a YouTube video, that transcript you know, can send important signals to the AI search engines about your business. And it just, you know, the more you're reinforcing the expertise that you have, the more it's seen across the web, you know, the more likely that you are going to be, you know, ranking better. Structured data, you know, you want to make sure that You make it really easy for the AI engines to be able to crawl and understand your website. And the best way to do that is to structure data. And, you know, AI really, you know, right now it's going to get more sophisticated as we evolve, but, and it evolves. But, you know, right now, you know, just think about how you personally use AI. It's usually some kind of a conversation, right? It's a question and answer frequently. Even if you don't write it as a question, if you say, write an email summary about— write a summary about that I can put into an email to describe a problem to a client. That's really You're asking the AI a question to be able to provide the answer to you, right? So even though it's not truly the way you phrase that prompt, it is still really largely that. So it's dialogue back and forth. If you only have expertise on your domain, as we've been talking about and Ian just mentioned, you're missing key places where people are going and looking for expertise naturally, but also places that people never go to, to look for information, but still feeds the engines, the AI and the search engines, you know, with key business information. The importance of NAP, we've talked about this for decades, you know, name, address, phone number being consistent. It's still important. You know, people deemphasized it a couple of years ago. It's back, baby. It's back, to quote George Costanza, or a rough facsimile thereof. So you've got to pay attention to all of this stuff. AI is really— it's information hungry, right? It's designed to consume massive amounts of information. And if you want it to be accurate in the way it's presenting your business, it needs to be consistent across all of the places that it's gathering this information. And that's why you need to have this omnichannel strategy of getting your content consistently to build your authority across the web. It's really, you know, and this authority that's found all across the web corroborates what is on your website. We've talked about, you know, in the past, just take your Google Business Profile. Google tells us the 3 things that you have to do for your Google Business Profile. You know, proximity, you know, where is that map pin dropped at the address that you use to establish your Google profile? Even if you're a service area business, that's where the pin is dropped. You know, and then it works outward in a radius generally where you have a better opportunity to rank. We've talked about prominence. Prominence is the next one. We've talked— I've talked about proximity. So prominence is really largely driven around the reviews, review velocity, quality of the reviews, you know, general sentiment about the business, things like that.
And then relevance.
Right. Well, this is relevance on steroids right here, folks. When you're doing omnichannel distribution and broadcast of the content that you have, Google wants to know, and it's important for your Google Business Profile and your website to have corroboration to say, ah, this is accurate. These are 2 important properties that Google will return in search results In order to do that, it's got to have information corroborated across a wide variety of platforms and types of content.
If, if I can add one, one thing to what you said there, Ken, and it's not, it's, it's not to be controversial this time, it's just to add something that not everybody knows about.
Oh, come on. It—
so AI, AI doesn't really have information of its own, just like Google doesn't have information of its own, other than the algorithms in the back end that gather the information and do some sort of sorting and ranking and that kind of stuff, right? And, and so like your website, super important. But you were talking about like reviews, maps, that kind of stuff. Like none of the platforms actually have their own except, except Google, right? Because Gemini uses Google Maps. ChatGPT often uses Google Maps. It can use Apple Maps as well. So, and then you have Bing Maps, right? So all of these platforms platforms, the AI platforms basically pull information related to your reviews and your map listings from somewhere else. So if you're not optimizing your Google Business Profile, your Bing Business listing, like, or your Apple Maps listing, right? Like, they're not going to have the information to even show you to potential prospective customers. So you need to— that's where that offsite stuff becomes so valuable. But people don't always understand that. They think that the The AI has all the answers, right? But it's pulling it from somewhere.
Yeah.
And if I can add something, try and clear it up a little bit, is that structured data, which Ken talked about and we've talked about in the past, is extremely important to the LLMs, even more important than it is to the Google algorithm. But the LLMs do not crawl the web in the same way that the Google algorithm does. And so there's a very good chance that the LLMs will never find your website unless it finds a link to your website from some other place. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. And that's an important distinction to understand.
Yeah, that's a good point, Paul. The LLMs, just to amplify that, Google has their crawler bots. If you look at your website traffic, your analytics, you can actually see traffic from Google Googlebot, and they're out there crawling websites and following links to other websites. And the AIs are not just sitting there churning away like, what are all the websites in the world and what are all they saying? They're looking for answers, so they're going to go to the places they know first and then maybe follow a few links and look for sources. So yeah, that's an important distinction in terms of the, uh, you know, the, the knowledge they have available to them. Now, what the AIs do a great job at is synthesizing all that into a coherent But yeah, they're not all-knowing, despite what the naysayers would have you believe. They're not taking over the world yet, and they're not all-knowing. And it's important to recognize how they work and the distinctions between each. I think a lot of too many people maybe put too much credence into AI. Well, ChatGPT said, and it's like, yeah, no, and it'll hallucinate too.
So, the other side of that too, Jeff, is that People think they can game AI by constantly going in there and asking it about its business. So they think they're training the AI algorithm and database on their business. And all of the AIs have come out and said that actually doesn't work. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. But that's the official, you know—
Well, no, that's a good point. And, you know, people do it and then they think they see the results of it. Well, they saw the results of it for them.
Right.
Yeah.
It doesn't mean that just because they went on every day for 2 weeks and asked about their business that somebody else is going to go on 10 minutes later and get the same answer. That's actually another important point about AIs is they're not deterministic in the computer science terminology. There's a lot of judgment. You know, they, to use a lack of a better word, they infer things. That's the core of AI and neural networks is inferring something from the information available.
Especially in the same stream, right? The same conversation. Like, if you've looked up your business in one conversation and then you search it again, like, to pretend you don't know it, it's using that information it's already found.
That's right. Yeah,
Yeah, that's the context window. Basically, you have to tell it, like, erase your memory for me and let's try this again.
Yeah, or do so much that the first stuff you did has been forgotten because it will keep a limited amount of information in its context window. And then he'll move on.
But yeah, Jeff, I think Ian and Ken have both talked about reviews. How do reviews fit into the larger EEAT conversation?
Yeah, so of course, reviews go to the trustworthiness. They're the T in EEAT. And arguably, you know, I would say that it's the most important of the factors because you can have all the expertise you want, you can have all the authority and the command of subject matter and the knowledge you want, you can convey that. But if you don't have trustworthiness, if people say, oh yeah, they talk a good game but they can't back it up, then you're lost. So reviews really are trust at scale. And Ken used a great term, review velocity. It's not just having a bunch of reviews, it's having good steady review growth. You don't want to get a bunch of reviews and then have nothing for 3 months and then a bunch more reviews and and then have nothing for 3 months. That just looks like you went out and bought reviews. Um, you want good steady review growth. I think Ken also said you need a, you know, always-on review mechanism, which is absolutely true. And you can use CRMs to do that for you, uh, to help automate the process. Notice I said help automate the process. Um, but you want that slow steady growth. And then within the reviews, it's, it's almost you need to coach people leaving reviews a little bit, and sometimes the way you ask and guide them along, the reviews are going to provide real-world experience signals as well. Or, you know, what did the customer experience when they worked with you? So having them use the right words and the right terms in there is important. If you're talking to somebody, you know, if you're a contractor and you're out wrapping up a job and you're standing in the driveway looking at the house that you've just painted or something, you know, you can say, hey, that's, that's great, would you mind leaving us a review? By the way, it would be helpful if you mentioned ABC and D, right? You can plant those seeds and took a picture, or you can, you know, maybe do that in the email request, however you request the review. But getting the customers to put in their words some of your words, uh, is important because, um, you know, you do want to tie it back to the things people are looking for. So the reviews are real-world experience signals. It's the language that customers are going to use. You want to seed it a little bit, but then they provide behavioral proof. It's the part that says this expertise and authoritativeness is trustworthy. They can walk, you know, walk the walk. So that's the behavioral proof you're going to get from reviews. Again, that's why it's important to have, you know, steady review velocity, as Ken called it, and get that validation out of it. And then here's the other thing. We talk about all these systems and where they're getting this information. AI has a thirst for information. It is, you know, feed me, feed me, Seymour. And one of the things it's going to do is it's going out looking things, and it may start with somebody asking, but it's going to go look at reviews too. It's going to try and figure out, you know, what other people are saying is and use that as part of its answer. So those reviews, you know, matter in the AI world as well. Um, and then I talked about the keywords. You know, it's, it's again, slow and steady wins the race. It's having consistency across multiple reviews that paint the, the broader picture that is, um, you know, multiple people are having a similar great experience, then it must be a great experience for everybody, right? Remember, AI infers. So if it sees a whole bunch of people having a great experience, then on this particular topic, it's going to infer, hey, you're probably going to have a great experience in this particular topic too. Um, and then the other thing that reviews do is they, they kind of democratize your credibility. Um, you know, it's not just what you say, uh, it's what other people are saying about you. So again, that really, really boosts up the, uh, the importance of getting reviews.
Yeah, and people trust reviews.
Yeah, yeah. So that's been a statistic we've used for, for years now. You know, people are like, what's that, I think 70, 75, or 80% more likely to trust what somebody else says about you than what you say about yourself.
Yeah, and then that, that goes back, it's It's— I don't think it's as powerful as a review, but that goes back to having your content on other platforms with— because that basically is somebody else saying something about you.
Yeah, if that other person— I think the theory is if that other person, that other business, that other site is credible, because they have to establish their own credibility, but if they're credible and then they talk about you in a favorable light, since they're, they're credible, then the favorable things they're saying about you are probably true, right? So yeah, absolutely.
This is why the MC at a speaking event is the one that always introduces the keynote speaker with their accolades, because it means much more coming from them than from the person that's coming up, right? If they came up— yeah, yeah, it wouldn't have the same effect.
Yeah, can you imagine if the speaker just got up and said, hi, I'm glad to speak to you, I'm great because I've done this, I'm great because I've done that? It's like Yeah, right. But when the MC does that, it's like, wow.
Credibility, yeah.
Absolutely. I like that. I like that point.
Yeah, I came across, well, a phrase that I like a lot, which is reviews provide training data for AI, as does everything we're talking about today.
I was gonna say everything is training data for AI, but yeah, go on.
All of this, yeah. And reviews are that. And, you know, the— if you're just optimizing your website, you're missing the boat. You also need to optimize your trust.
Yeah. And while we're on the point of reviews, don't forget it's important to reply to reviews, positive and negative. It's important to reply to them. And on the negative ones, don't be combative, don't be argumentative. You know, acknowledge it, try and figure out how to, how to put it in a, hey, we're sorry you had this experience, what do we need to do, contact me offline. And then once, once you get the issue fixed, get the person to change the review. But as soon as you go on there and you're combative and argumentative, you've lost the battle.
Yeah, and try and take it offline if you can.
Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, kind of acknowledge it, say please contact me, we want to talk about what we can do to make it right. People will see that, you know, oh wow, this business has got a whole bunch of you know, 5-star reviews, and all of a sudden there's a 1-star review. Oh, but I see that right away they responded and said, hey, we're sorry, something happened, I'd like to understand more, please contact me, we want to make it right. Well, that really softens the, the blow of that 1-star review right now. You still want to try and get it resolved and get the, the person to, uh, to upgrade it if you can work it out with them, because it takes a lot of 5-star reviews to overpower one. You know, do the math. It takes a lot of 5-stars to overpower one 1-star. It really pulls Pulls your average down.
Well, and there was just a study out that says that, uh, you know, again, of the people who are surveyed, but, um, a third of people will not do business with a business that is rated 4.5 or lower. Last year, that same number was 4.2.
Yeah, especially if a lot of your competitors have higher ratings than you. But 40 minutes—
Is that review inflation, do you think?
I don't know.
Well, the funny thing is that the stats also show that people don't trust a 5.0-star review either, right? Like, yeah, because we know that nobody's perfect. So it— the window's getting smaller. You need a 4.9, no lower than 4.5, right?
Yeah, I've got a couple clients that have 5 stars. Well, it shows as 5. If you look, they might have a 1 or a 2 way in the back, but numerically it's like 4.99, so it just shows as 5. And I'm almost like, oh man, that just doesn't look good.
Feels good though.
Yeah, yeah, they love it being able to sit back. Yeah.
So Ian, I think we just had a guest on a few weeks ago about this. What role does personal branding play in SEO today?
Yeah, unfortunately I wasn't on that, that one. Um, so hopefully I echo everything Maldi shared, but first, first I'll talk about kind of the why, the role, and then I'll give some examples. So why, why is personal branding so important? First of all, it strengthens, it strengthens the EEAT signals, right, to all of the platforms. So when your content is clearly authored by a real person with relevant experience, it's easier for the search systems, the AIs, to judge it is helpful and reliable information, right? That's ultimately what you're trying to do. But if you don't attach it to a personal brand within your business, it's very hard for the systems to do that, right? It's, it's almost too generic. Number 2, it improves entity understanding. So this is a newer term, like we've probably been using it for 2 years. Those of us who are like SEO eggheads, but, you know, which is all of us on this, on this panel. But for the people out there, we've been talking about entities, that this is the way that AIs are looking at people. But Google's been talking about this for several years now, that you, you need to be viewed as an entity. Your business is an entity. And you, as you know, whether you're the primary author of the business, the subject matter expert, you are an entity within that business. And so you're kind of creating this association that is very powerful. So your personal brand across your site, across the wider web, it helps AI and Google and Bing connect the mentions, the bios, the reviews, the citations to that same entity, right? And, and then that flows up in your business as well. Number 3, it increases the odds of being cited or recommended in AI answers. AI experiences often synthesize from sources. We've talked about that a lot today. That it doesn't just— well, it does hallucinate and it does make up stuff sometimes. We've all experienced that where we're like, tell me about this, and it spouts off some statistics and you're like, what sources did you use? And it's kind of like, you know, it gives a more lengthy response than that, but it can make stuff up. So you have to— that's why you always ask for the sources when you're asking for specific things. And it often gives you source links that don't work, which isn't super helpful. But it's all about building authority trust signals. And then lastly, it makes offsite reputation more transferable to your rankings. So we talked about how I want one— now I'll save it for later because I know another question is coming up. But so those are the why, like why personal branding is important. And it shouldn't be overlooked and it shouldn't be ignored. And I think, you know, big businesses have been doing this for a while. You have your president or founder who is often a personal brand within the business. You might have, if you're big enough, you might have subject matter experts within your business that talk on specific areas and they're the author of those subjects. And so, but small businesses often don't do this and sometimes it's because they want to be perceived as bigger than they are. Right? So if, if, you know, if, if we're talking about my agency and I'm the only subject matter expert or authority in that business that we're promoting, some people might view it as too small a business to work with depending on who you're going after, right? And the same is true for a lot of other ones. But like with dentists, you should be building the, the personal brand of the dentist within the context of the larger clinic as well. And if you have multiple dentists, you should be, you know, doing that for all of them. But some tangible things you should be doing is creating author bios on your website. Because again, where, where are the platforms, the search everywhere platforms, where are they going to get that information if you're not providing it, right? So when you author a book on, on, on Kindle or on Amazon, you should be, you should be creating an author bio on there. You should be expanding your founder visibility. You should be naming your contributors. So if you are, if you have contributors to articles, you should be naming them and linking out to them. And it's really just about creating a consistent expert identity, right? So the more you do this, you know, if you're, if you're the owner of a business or the founder and you show up on podcasts, you write articles, you post educational content, you do YouTube videos, If you're referenced elsewhere, and, and we talked about some of those different authority sites and platforms that you should be showing up on because they're referenced by the search everywhere platforms, that strengthens your authoritativeness. And people trust people. Like, people are ultimately buying, you know, unless you're buying shoes off Amazon, which is not really a people-to-people experience. But for most business-to-consumer or business-to-business purchases, you're, you're all about making the human connection because they do buy from people. You know, they'll, they'll have questions. And ultimately, for a lot of these purchases, they don't make them until they've actually interacted with a person. So people trust people. AI mirrors that. And you got to be building it, your personal brand.
Always be building.
Yeah, if I can just throw out an example to illustrate the power of personal branding, and it's, it's maybe a little bit looser related, but, um, think of, you know, sports in particular comes to mind. Um, when you hear about a couple of teams playing, it's not the Kansas City Chiefs versus— it's Patrick Mahomes and the Kansas City Chiefs. That personal mention, that personal connection, that personalization as a business to something that's more relevant to you is much more powerful. And that's a marketing trick they figured out a long time ago. I think it was probably back in the Michael Jordan Chicago Bulls era is when I first, you know, heard reference to that. And then all of a sudden everyone started jumping on that bandwagon. You know, the branding involved a person, a face. It's not quite personal branding in the sense of a small business, but it's personal branding in the sense that personalizing, um, who you're, you know, thinking about buying from, which is, you know, if you're going to a game or watching it on TV, you're, you're buying into that game, right?
Would, would Apple have been as popular without Steve Jobs, right? Maybe, maybe not, but yeah, who knows? But Steve Jobs kind of elevated it because of his personal brand and his, his black turtlenecks and, you know, the cool factor that he brought out.
There, there are 2 other partners he had when he started, and some people could probably name one of them. Very few can name the third, including me. I can't remember the third. Wozniak was the, the other. Yep. Uh, and I can't remember the third off top of my head. Um, yeah, uh, take advantage of that. People, people relate to people.
Ronald—
So if you can— that was his name? You looked at— did you Google it?
That says the third co-founder. I, I AI'd it.
Okay.
Well, then you know it's right. So Ken, what are some of the biggest mistakes businesses make when it comes to EEAT?
Well, the first thing is not knowing about EEAT, uh, and by not knowing that, you know, then that tells me a couple things. One is maybe they only have a Facebook page and they think that that's good enough. to show up in search results.
That always astounds me because we have seen that.
Yeah, I've seen it. You know, or just a Google Business Profile. Well, I mean, EEAT does pertain to your Google Business Profile to a degree for sure. But, you know, where it gets real serious is, you know, historically it's been, you know, people think, okay, well, this just pertains to my website. So I gotta go make sure I go do all the classic SEO stuff, you know, make sure my meta tags are right, make sure my page titles are good, make sure my blog frequency is on a regular basis, not really caring about what content is on the blog, really just, you know, going through, you know, manufacturing output to, you know, just to check a box. You know, maybe beyond that, They looked at, do I have any broken links, or, you know, do I have alt tags, you know, on my images and all that kind of stuff. But it's just a classic SEO. Really what they've done is they've ignored all of the off-website importance that EEAT demands. Being mentioned in press releases, being a guest on podcasts, being— having articles written about you, being quoted in articles that are out there, using LinkedIn to demonstrate your thought leadership, you know, providing guest content where you're writing content that you put on other people's websites or association sites. Like if you're a member of you know, the Painting Contractor Association and you're a painter and you put content on their website, that demonstrates that level of authority and expertise that you might have. Taking advantage of local channels in particular, local media. But don't forget about social media, while we all hate it in a lot of different ways, It's still an important thing out there. It still gets your name out there. It may not share the SEO credibility and the SEO juice per se. Some platforms will, like Pinterest, for example. But just being visible. And then we talked about it earlier, video content. There's been a shift because of TikTok, whether you like TikTok or not. And whether you should use TikTok or not for your marketing is not what we're talking about today. But what TikTok did do is it forced all of the video platforms to change the way they present their information across the board to people, not just based on those people who had a relationship with that channel that was producing the content. It's now the content itself in its relationship to the person that— and what they've expressed they're interested in. It's really kind of a shift to a for-you type content. Uh, you know, that's why, that's why video, even though it may not necessarily— it's never going to hurt you in terms of rankings, but it may not really be the, the lever that, that makes a difference in rankings. But man, it sure can get you out there and more visible to a lot of people on the channels that they're using. And if people are using those social channels, that's important as well. But ultimately, all of this sends signals across the web that AI is going to pick up on and consolidate and infer what people's expertise, authority, and trust really are, people and also the businesses. So you can't, you know, when we first started doing, you know, digital marketing, website design, SEO back 20 years ago when I got started into it pretty deep, you know, I was always amazed at the number of people that said, well, I don't want to put that on my website, you know, because it's like, I don't want my competitors to know. And it's like, well, nobody's gonna know. So, you know, this isolationist protective mentality, you got to break through it. You've got to have your content. And look, in some cases, it's uncomfortable. If you're a founder of a business, guess what? You have to be out there in the world. I am out there way more in the world visibly than I personally want to be. But I have to be for the health and benefit of my business. You know, do I want to post on Facebook all the time or ever? Not really, but I have to because it's important for my business. And so you have to come to grips with that. And if you're not the right person to do that, I mean, go back and listen to the episode we had with Guy Kawasaki.
Yeah.
Get a partner that is really good at that. Let them build the brand image, their personal image, and pull up your business that way. If you want to be the behind-the-scenes invisible partner, that's fine, but you have to have that other person if you're wanting to be found online.
Yeah, the theme for this podcast should have been everything you think you know about SEO is wrong. Because, you know, it's— look, page title and page structure is important, but like your meta description, Google's going to rewrite that anyway. They flat out said it. They said put a meta description in there, but there's a 90% chance we're going to rewrite it anyway.
But it doesn't always.
Not always.
I would modify your stem and ply and say everything you think you know about SEO is only the tip of the iceberg.
And it might be wrong.
It might be wrong.
It might be the wrong—
Icebergs do flip over.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I was on an AMA that John Mueller was on a while back, and I still recommend, because recommendation always used to be only have one H1 tag, and I still kind of adhere to that. But someone flat out asked him, how many H1 tags should you have on a page? And he said, as many as you need. That was his direct quote.
Which should only be one.
And yet the structure, right? We all know that because of schema and, and H tag structure, it's even more meaningful now because of AIs, right? And, and even the way Google's looking at it. So. Yeah.
AI is more literal than people think.
Well, it applies, it, it applies value, right? When you have a headline, an H1 and H2 and H3, you're, you're telling it this is important, right? So it, it values that.
Yeah, it's also major topic organization, right? That's, that's the value. You're saying it's a heavier value. But, you know, if you're trying to have a page that's demonstrating expertise and authority on a subject, do you really want to talk about 2 subjects on the page?
That's true.
Yeah, I mean, I still come across web designers who use H tags as a form of Text size, right? Yeah, that is not at all how they're to be used.
You have an H1 with an H4 and H3 underneath it. And yeah, it's nuts.
It's the prettification, prettification of the website.
Yeah, but you can prettify it in a different way that still achieves that.
Yeah, but it's harder.
Yes, it is. And you have to know about it.
So Jeff, how can a small business start? We've been talking about this for Almost an hour now. So how can a small business actually start building authority beyond their website?
Yeah, I mean, I, I can make the answer to this one quick. I, I— everything Ken just said, right? Think about all the places that, again, beyond the website, right? All the places you can go out and you can start to get mentions, because that's what it's really about. It's about getting the mentions, getting the visibility elsewhere, and then getting search engines and the AI engines to kind of see all that and then assemble it into this one, you know, big ball of what it knows about you. So get interviewed on a podcast. You know, we, we have guests on our podcasts for that reason. There are people that are out there looking to get on podcasts. We have some that we've invited because we think they'd make a great guest. We have some that come to us and we're like, yeah, it'd be a good fit. So start thinking about getting interviewed on a podcast or even start your own. I will say, to do a podcast, as we all know very well, it's a lot of work. There's a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that has to happen to do it right. Um, but people can do that for you. Um, but podcasts, certainly, uh, podcasts are also great because especially if you record the video part, if it's not only audio, you can derive video shorts from it. You can derive, uh, written content from from the transcripts. You can use AI to help. There's a lot you can do. Um, and then think about, you know, can you get, um, positioned on other people's sites? You know, write an article. I think Ken mentioned, you know, an industry trade association. You know, if you're the painter, go out on the PCA website and try and get a guest article. I had a client that was in the medical software space, and we got guest articles every month on, uh, one of the organizations, the statewide organizations, and, um, nobody else did. It's like they've got all these businesses that are trying to reach these people and even sponsors that are paying money, and, and which we were, but, um, I don't think you could get on there without doing that. But, but then we asked, we said, hey, you know, you publish a newsletter, can we submit an article? They said, yeah, we'd love it, right? There's a thirst for content. So look for places where you can get published on somebody's website, in a newsletter, you know, wherever you can. If you can get quoted by the local news and get picked up, that's great. Leverage LinkedIn, be a thought leader on LinkedIn, publish out there. Work on your Google profile. You can treat your Google profile, the updates in there, like mini blog posts. They're not as long typically, but they, they're longer than typical social media, or at least they can be. And then the customer reviews as well. You know, get people to mention, uh, mention your business in the reviews. Depending on your business, it may or may not be appropriate to have them mention you by name. Um, I've had cases where people have mentioned me by name and I wish they didn't. I wish it was about the business. But if you're a, you know, more one-on-one, uh, like a coach or a consultant or something, it might be appropriate to have them mention my name, and then that'll, that'll help get you picked up. Um, and then, you know, put Put authoritative content, answer people's questions, demonstrate expertise, demonstrate authority any place you can, you know, build YouTube videos, put Shorts out, put it on social media. And again, it's that whole body of work that we've been talking about for years, decades that all come together to raise everything. It's everything working together. It's not just one thing. It's the marketing system, not Volume is, you know, how much is enough? You don't need to spend all of your time doing anything. You need to spend enough of your time to get enough visibility and then see it pay off. And I would say if you only had, you know, 2 hours a week to spend, spend it— instead of spending 2 hours all in one place, spend it maybe, you know, 15 minutes or 30 minutes at a time in multiple places. Because again, you know, It's the body of work. And if you get the attention of the AIs or the search engines from one channel, then it might start spilling over and bringing in others. And if you're relying on a single channel, you're putting all your eggs in one basket. And well, you know the saying about that. And again, build a pattern and make it consistent. Make it real, not spammy. And don't just go pay somebody to do it for you and and go crazy because it won't be authentic. It won't be necessarily even expertise-driven. And especially in the AI world, the platforms are getting smart enough to recognize that. And you don't want to be penalized for what you're putting out. You want to be rewarded. Yeah.
You know, Jeff, you talk about frequently asked questions in multiple formats. But, you know, if you think about it, you're demonstrating expertise and authority when you're answering FAQs.
Yeah.
If all you do on your website is have 5 FAQs, you know, you're really not telling anybody anything, and it's probably generic to your business and not to a specific product or service. And, you know, you really should have FAQ, a set of FAQs for every important product and every important service, maybe even every important location that you serve.
Yeah, the, the days of the FAQ page and then having them all listed there are gone. They need to be— and you might still have that, but you want them interspersed on the, the various pages. And, and you don't need, you know, 50 FAQs per page. You maybe have, you know, 5 or the right small number. Um, again, it's another signal that goes into demonstrating the authority and expertise.
All right, Ian, last question. I'm gonna qualify this a little bit so as not to confuse people. So if keyword rankings aren't like the main goal— and what I mean by that is that, like I said earlier, it's just saying I want to rank for this keyword and this keyword and this keyword, so I'm going to write some content and put it on my website and that's— that'll be good enough. It's— we know that's not the case anymore, and we have all these distribution channels What else should businesses be measuring?
And I'll further clarify because I can't let it go, Paul, because I know if you— so we know the nuances as guides on this, right? I'm just— I always worry because just like you guys see all the headlines out there and there's so many social posts about this stuff. I think this statement is true, but it's also— there's a bit of ambiguity to it that people won't understand. So it kind of goes back to our conversation earlier where Jeff was talking about keyword stuffing and relating it to keyword ranking. The thing is, is that we all as SEO experts and you all as businesses that are listening or watching this care about keyword ranking. If we didn't, we're missing 85% of searches. Because when— what I want to say is that when somebody is looking for you and they're using Google or You're going to show up in a keyword ranked, and I'll, I'll, I'll add some more color to that because I know you guys, your radar is going up and you're like, ah, it's topical keyword ranking now. It's, it's not just this keyword equals this if you put it on your website, but it's topical. And so if you don't put that information on your website, if you don't have any of the keywords on your website that relate to the topic, you will not have topical dominance in that area. So keyword ranking is still super important, and I don't want people to miss that because if you're not ranking 1, 2, or 3 in Google searches, you're not ranking for 85% of searches right now for local businesses. So don't forget.
I think what you just said is a good point, and it's a good way to look at it, is that just writing an article based on ranking for a keyword, it comes down— the keyword has to relate to topical dominance, which goes back to Google's authority and trust. And I think that's the nuance that has changed so much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you, if you think about it, the, the keywords a lot of times that, that any subject matter expert thinks in and uses aren't necessarily the ones people look for. And that was always part of the challenge is like, well, how do I know what keywords I should write around or I should use? And that goes out the window with topical dominance because the platforms, the AIs particularly, are smart enough to know that if you use this keyword, you're probably talking about this topic and here's all the other things that go around it and we can create content around that topic. So now you can reorganize your thinking from we're not, you know, centered on keywords, we're centered on topics and the topics are the ones that are going to demonstrate the expertise and authority, and we can build trust around with, with, you know, how we show, you know, social proof. So it's kind of freeing, you know, when you move away from worrying about keyword ranking to worrying to, you know, focusing on topical dominance. It's kind of freeing, really.
Yeah, and I agree with all that you just said. The one thing that I think people miss out when we say it like that, though, Is, and I'll use an example. So we have, we have a dog dental client. So they do dentistry for dogs. They are not a vet. And so they stay away from keywords. They avoid words like, they do use anesthesia-free occasionally, but not very much. They stay away from using the word vet. They stay away from the words dental. They stay away from like the issues that you might have with teeth if things go bad and you don't take care of your teeth. And what's interesting about that is they do not show up for any of the searches related to the topics of anesthesia-free dental, right? And, and those are impacting them in a negative way. And those are keywords. And so the key, the words we use are still super important. Because if the systems can't find the keyword within the topic, it doesn't think you, you are related. So, you know, I think there's nuances to this that get overlooked by businesses because of sometimes the way we say things. And, and, you know, they're just, you know, because the last thing I want them to go away from this conversation is go, well, keywords don't matter anymore. And I guess I don't need to use any words that actually relate to the services or the pain points of people looking for my services because it could be construed that.
No, they matter only to lead you into topics.
You can't have topical dominance without the words that associate all the— it's like a grouping of keywords now.
Yeah, it's clusters.
Not using, but it's however we want to phrase it.
It's a whole— You may exclude and then you're going to exclude some that don't apply. Right.
It's a whole bunch of keywords in a bag, however we want to call it—
clusters, bag of keywords.
It doesn't matter. It's just you have to use the words for the systems to understand that you have authority in that topic, or it's gonna—
Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is you don't have to focus on only those words and figuring out what those golden words are. Hey, the other, just kind of tongue-in-cheek, um, so that client of yours, Ian, do they work on K- Do they work on canine canines?
Yeah, they do work on canine canines. Yes, they do.
Canine teeth.
It's actually a very cool business. I love working with them. So now that I got that all out there, and we've talked—
off your chest.
That's right. So, so if we set that aside, then things like brand mentions, branded search growth, review velocity, authority placements, AI answer citations, engagement on distributed content, lead quality. Like, these are things we should be measuring. But again, as an— as a company that does SEO and AI search, like, yes, there's new ways for us to measure how you're showing up on AI search, but they're, they're very rudimentary right now. And they're not very good, right? Because AI search changes, just as you said, Jeff, it's the context of the person doing the search that often can frame the results. But You, you absolutely need to be looking at your keyword rankings because that is the way to measure your SEO, right? Your topical dominance, your keyword gaps, all of those things are super important. But then all of these other things round out those. And ultimately, the biggest measurements you should be looking at is attribution. Where are my leads coming from? And AI attribution is not easy right now. Because that's not often where people end up. They often go, like you were talking about, kind of the journey that people take. But the more we can attribute where people are coming from and how that's turning into closed business is ultimately the gold standard of what we're trying to measure. But then there's all these, you know, prior metrics that have meaning in order to measure how we're doing from a visibility standpoint. Are we getting in front of the right people at the right time on the right platforms? to move them through their buyer's journey and influence them in order to choose us as businesses.
You know, you just, you said something that triggered a thought. Is it—
I triggered you.
If you're not ranking for a certain keyword and yet you have content around that keyword, the question becomes why? And is it, is that back to an authority thing that you don't have enough brand mentions or you're not being found outside Because your website's like an island and that doesn't work anymore. So it may be we're looking at it the wrong way. It's not about keywords don't matter. It's about if you're not ranking for a keyword that you have content on your website for, then you need to start looking at why. You need to start maybe looking outside your website. Maybe you need to be doing something else.
And volume of content, right? Like you guys have all come across this where somebody comes to you and they're like, I'm not, we're not showing up for this keyword, right? Which again is still a common thing that people are searching for as businesses.
And they have a 200-word blog post on it.
You have a 200-word blog post or it's not mentioned on their homepage or, right? There's so many reasons. But again, if you're not feeding the machines with, with those keyword bags of keywords that have meaning that attach to what people are searching for in a topical dominance sort of way, you're not feeding the machine what it needs to make, to help promote you in front of them. Like, that's the key, right? We're just trying to interpose our businesses in front of people at the time of purchase, wherever they are.
Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, keyword rankings obviously are important. But if you're not ranking, these are the metrics that we talked about. Those are the things that you can do to step on the gas pedal to help you rank for the topical keywords. And so, and this is the thing that people aren't doing. They're not measuring these things because they're simply not doing these things. These are, you know, you need to go get brand mentions from authoritative websites. You know, you need to be tracking that. You need to see what your competitors are doing because they may be building more topical authority than you are because they're more successful at the brand mentions, but they may not have that personal authority and expertise. So you've got to look at these, these metrics. Don't just be fooled by looking purely at keyword rankings, because these are the things that will help you erode fast over time as the world is shifting out from under you. If, if all you're doing is looking at keyword rankings, I think that's the important thing is don't just stop at keyword rankings.
Those are important.
They will always be important. But look at the underlying foundational things. Why are you probably ranking? And what are your competitors doing that maybe you need to do more of so that you can rank better than they are ranking?
And take care of your website because again, Ken, if like, I think you'd agree with this, like you can get all the brand mentions you want, you can optimize your Google Business Profile, it will help. But if you ignore your website, and I'm just saying this again because I see it, like I see businesses doing this.
Yeah.
That you can't ignore the only property you own.
Right. Oh yeah, no, absolutely. It's, you know, I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's everything for your business.
It's, it's like the fire, and you're talking about like, let's add, you know, fuel to the fire by adding more and more and more, which I think we all agree to, right? Like, you have to do that in order to become the most visible fire on, you know, people are looking for. Yeah, weird analogy, sorry.
All right, well, I think this is a good place to wrap up. We went kind of long, so Ian, you want to take us out? Sure.
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