Ken Tucker:
Hey everybody. It’s Ken Tucker here with Changescape Web. Today. I’m joined by Jen, Ian, Dan, and Paul, and we’re all really excited to have with us today. John Jantsch, we’ve worked with John for a long time and John, I think you’re the only guest now that’s been, that’s made our second appearance. So thank you very much. John is the founder of duct tape marketing and author of the upcoming book. The ultimate marketing machine, five steps to ridiculously can stiff consistent growth from Harper Collins leadership. And that’s going to be out, September 21st of this year. So let’s just jump right into it. John, this book looks a little different than maybe some of the other books that you’ve put together before. What new ground does the ultimate marketing machine cover That’s different from other marketing books out there.
John Janstch:
So this is a, this is actually my seventh book. and I do need to correct you can I make this mistake sometimes too, but it’s the ultimate marketing engine, which I’ve been guilty of doing too. So it’s easy, easy to do, but it’s the ultimate. No worries. The, the ultimate marketing engine and it is my seventh book and, but it’s, it’s really the first straight up kind of marketing strategy book that I’ve written in about 10 years. So in a lot of ways, what I’ve added to this book is, you know, I’m still practicing marketing every single day. So it’s kind of my, evolution of, some of the things I wrote about in duct tape marketing and certainly in the referral engine, as well, probably the number one innovation that, I’m, I’m really think, from feedback is, is, changing how some people think about marketing is something that I call the customer success track, which, we can go into in more detail. But it’s, it’s a significant part of the, the what, what kind of big idea if you will.
Ken Tucker:
Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s been really interesting to watch the way business has been morphing lately. And, we’re, we’re going to get more into this as we, as we talk through throughout this section, but you know, it, it, it, it seems to me like the idea of subscriptions and memberships, all of that has just become hugely important. And so, you know, I’m really excited to learn more about your book and how you, how you came up with what you’ve got and, and certainly, you know, find out more about the five steps
John Jantsch:
You bet. Well, I will say that, I signed the contract for this book actually March 15th, 2020. I was just giving you guys a moment to think about what you were doing March 15th, 2012. Yeah. The world was coming to an end or at least, our, our little portions of the world. We felt that way. and so I, you know, it really, I was kinda like, cow, what am I going to write I mean, right now, what everybody’s going through, what I’m going through is, is certainly going to dictate this. But I, I certainly didn’t want to write, you know, how to market in a time of COVID, nobody wants to have buck particularly anymore. and so it, what, what I, what came to be the big idea from this book really is what I actually saw from some of my customers. I mean, there were some people that of course, were in the wrong place, the wrong industry, the wrong time.
John Jantsch:
I mean, they just, they, they really got wiped out even by COVID, but I also saw a lot of businesses that not only, survived, that they actually thrived. and, and it really shown a very bright light to me on something that’s always been true, a lot of businesses, grow and scale just because they’re in a market that happens to be growing and scaling, at the time. But in tough times, businesses that, that really survive and thrive are ones that are meaningful in some way, some important way to their customers. I saw a lot of, of customers reaching out to some of my clients and saying, Hey, what can we do You know, we’re going to be here with you. We know you’ve got to make hard decisions right now, how can we support you And I think that that again has always been relevant.
John Jantsch:
It’s always been true, but I do think that the, the struggles that a lot of us went through last year, just highlighted that for me. And so, the, this idea of customers are treating customers as members, came about not, not as a, I mean, membership as a business model is, is great, but it was really more of this idea that, that, you know, how can we look at our, our customers, you know, rather, through the lens of a transaction and think more in terms of the idea of, of a transformation, you know, how can we look at everybody who becomes a customer and look at where they are today, and try to take them to where they want to be, as opposed to just try to sell them what it is that we sell. Yeah. And so I made you speechless. Yeah, you did.
Dan:
You, you did have, you were just talking about that customer success track. And I was wondering, once you unpack that a little bit, you know, how might a business apply the customers success, track and use it on a regular basis
John Jantsch:
Well, so as you guys talked about in the beginning, I’ve worked with many of you. You’ve, you’ve worked with me for many years. And, the customer success track really came about not as something that I planned out and said, okay, this is I’m going to break customer stages. And, you know, it really came about sort of organically. I mean, I’ve worked with, I’ve had customers that I’ve worked with for 10, 12, 15 years now. And as you continue to work with somebody under the umbrella of marketing, I mean, they mature, you know, the work that you do for them in a way matures. And so, it came, it, it really seemed to me that there were kind of common breaks or stages as I called them. And so customer success tracker the idea of creating customer success, track for marketing, at least in this case, was that, to, to really kind of understand what stage most of our customers come to us in, or prospects come to us in, what are the characteristics of those stages
John Jantsch:
I mean, how can we actually identify somebody in that stage What are the challenges we know where we’ve learned at least that they’re facing, because they’re in that stage. And then finally, what’s the promise if we could actually move them out of that stage, to the next stage. and each stage then has we have the ability I think if, if, if our goal is to move a client to the next stage, we have the ability to create a list of milestones in each of those stages. And basically say yes or no, you know, have they accomplished that Or have we accomplished that for them if the answer is, yes, great check that off. If the answer’s no, what tasks can we assign them to that milestone So it almost becomes a bit of a guaranteed way to move people through the stages, do the appropriate work in each stage.
John Jantsch:
so they come to you in a foundational stage, we get them out of the foundational stage and move them to level up. then we move them to, you know, have ultimately to, to scale. And that’s the idea of actually going into the engagement with the goal of taking them from where they are, to where we believe they want to be. And I think that this, this thinking, not only becomes a roadmap for what we sell, but I think it ultimately can color the mission of the work that you do. It can, it certainly can color the processes and the training and you know, who you even hire and your sales messaging, around this idea of taking people on a guided journey, as opposed to just simply creating a transaction.
Dan:
And it’s, it’s interesting because this, I I’ve heard, you mentioned this before that sometimes like us as marketing consultants, as a result of the customer success track actually become business consultants a little bit more than we ever have. which is interesting too. It’s, you know, we used to think, oh gosh, that’s another lane or something like that, but, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think now more than ever, it seems like we’re getting pulled in that direction anyway, whether we like it or not to be that yeah, this
John Jantsch:
Customer success track is really, you know, we can call it marketing strategy, you know, to develop this, but it’s really overarching strategy for the business. And I think today, especially working with smaller mid-sized businesses, if you call yourself a consultant or a strategist, I mean, you’re going to get into every area of the, of the business, because there are so many areas, that, that, that impact marketing that we maybe we don’t think of as marketing, but we probably should. And I think that that’s, that’s really the idea now, the, this customer success track, I mean, ultimately what I want to try to do with this, or my goal of, of publishing it in this way is, is yeah. If you’re a marketer out there, I mean, this is going to make a ton of sense to you because I’ve developed a completely, but my contention is every business. I don’t care what industry you’re in, can develop this for their customers. and so that’s the, that’s my real long-term goal for this is that, that a lot of businesses start thinking this way, not just marketing, Hey,
Paul:
John, I’m sorry, my audio glitched earlier, I had to reset it, got to love technology, but you talk about this idea in your book about customers as members. What exactly do you mean by that
John Jantsch:
Sure. So, again, the, the, there is a, probably some confusion with that term. It just made the most sense to me to use that, but I’m not talking about first off, a subscription or a membership, or even a community. Those are all great models. There might make sense for certain businesses, but when I’m talking about more is, is, is the relationship, you know, in a customer relationship, things are quite often very transactional. whereas in a membership, if somebody joined something, they joined an organization because they, they, they actually want to invest in themselves or invest in that organization. if, if they, they stay in that organization and maybe even refer, you know, as a customer, we may refer folks, but as a member, you know, we’re going to evangelize that organization. And I just think that it, it’s, it’s a way of looking at the relationship that you treat every, everybody, every customer, every client that comes into your organization, if you treat them as though they were a member looking for a transformation, I think it’s just going to color everything that you do. It’s going to color the, ultimately it’s going to color the products and services that I think you, offered to them as well.
Jen:
John, from the marketing execution implementation side of things, can you walk us through how someone would go about getting started developing a customer success track, like, you know, walk us through first couple of days
John Jantsch:
Or so. Yeah. I mean, obviously, the more, you know, your customers, the longer you’ve been doing this, some of it might just be intuitive because you’ve experienced you, maybe haven’t, haven’t thought about, you know, stages and things, but you probably have a fairly good handle. But what I tell people quite often on this is in my experience, most of the customers that you’re serving, especially your ideal customers. And we’ll get into that a little bit about narrowing maybe, but particularly your ideal customers. Most of them come to you with a certain problem in a certain stage, and you get really good at serving that problem, that stage, you guys are all marketers. You know, that, that most of the businesses that really turn to a marketing consultant who want a marketing system realize that they’ve got a lot of moving parts that aren’t moving together.
John Janstch:
Their website’s not doing much for them. If they have one that, you know, full functioning, they really don’t have that much content there. search engine optimization is something that they abdicated to somebody and have no idea what they’re getting for it. And that’s really common stage. I mean, that’s the stage that I’ve defined as foundational stage. And you also know that you can’t move people, you can’t start generating leads or sales for them unless you clean some of that up. And so one of the first things probably to do is to really define the stage that most of your customers come to you. Most of your ideal customers come to you today. and then from there you can start then elevating, you know, how could we take them to the next level, whatever that is in your business. Now, I will also say that some businesses are somewhat transactional. There’s no question. If you’re a professional service provider selling B2B, this probably makes a ton of sense right off the bat, but let’s say you’re a remodeling contractor. And you’re thinking, well, you know, people come to me because they want their kitchen remodeled. I still believe that you can develop the stages for even how a project is going to go. And you could communicate that customer success track with the idea of the ultimate experience as well as the end product being developed. So I think it’s just a matter of taking your individual business, looking at what is very common, what are the common characteristics of your ideal customers, and then really start the, the, the hard work of figuring out how could you actually, how could you actually do what you do for them today in a much more advanced way
Ian:
Hey, John, one of the questions that comes to mind is that, I, in, in your book, you talk about how concepts like the marketing funnel and the customer journey have limitations. How, how so
John Jantsch:
Well, the, the, the marketing funnel I’ve been beating up on for years, you know, because unfortunately, while there’s, there’s an aspect of a funnel, generating clients, most people that’s where they stop thinking about it, it’s like that the person said they’d buy. That was the ultimate goal. and really to me, the ultimate goal is to have a hundred percent of your clients so thrilled that they’re referring you. And so the, the customer journey and even a tool you guys have worked with quite a bit, the marketing hourglass in some ways, has its limitations, even though, it focuses a great deal of emphasis on what happens after the sale. I mean, the best source of lead generation, is a happy customer. And so if you put that focus on the, what happens when they buy, what happens, you know, th that makes them want to repeat what happens or how can you stimulate referrals
John Jantsch:
I think that is, I think we’re miles ahead in that thinking. And of course, you know, the, the bookshelves today are littered with lots of books about, you know, never lose a customer again and, and, talk triggers and, hug your customers. And, you know, some of those kinds of books that are very focused on the idea of, of the customer experience. However, I think that in some ways that thinking can be limited because it’s still, I mean, I, I, I map it out greatly, you know, our customer journey, the marketing hourglass in the ultimate marketing engine. So I’m not safe set suggesting that we go away from that, but I’m suggesting that that’s still limited because in the end, we are still trying to guide the customer to do what we want them to do. which is obviously the big goal of marketing, marketing your business. But what I’m going to suggest is that the customer success track becomes inserted inside of when somebody becomes a customer becomes ignore of your ability to map the goals of, of taking that customer and creating a transformation in their life or in their business. And I just think that that puts a different focus on how we think about growing our own businesses.
Ken Tucker:
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that’s a good lead into my question, because you talk about, you know, the, the customer experience and, and, and, you know, guiding them through the process and a common mistake that I see all the time is, you know, when you, when you first start talking with a business about who are your ideal customers, they say anybody who has a checkbook, you know, or anything like that, but really that’s absolutely further from the truth. I mean, nothing could be further from the truth in that. So, you know, in, in your book, you talk about really, maybe even narrowing it to the top 20 clients that you have. Can you talk a little bit more about why you recommend that Yeah, it’s,
John Jantsch:
It’s funny. I was talking to a bank, recently, that was just kind of trying to work on their marketing and, you know, it was really just a casual conversation. I said, so who’s your ideal customer. People who don’t have money and B are people who have money and people who need money. And I was like, okay, we’re going to have to work on that a little bit. But that is, that is very, very common, the way that people see it. I mean, if I’m an accountant, anybody who needs to get their taxes done is, is a prospect, but we all have experienced that customer. That’s really not a good fit. Yeah. They needed their taxes done, but they don’t keep their, you know, they bring us a shoe box full of a bunch of receipts and have no idea what it is.
John Jantsch:
And, you know, I mean, they’re not an ideal customer necessarily, but I think that, that, you know, as cliche as it might sound, I mean, the, the whole 80 20 thing is, is real. Or at least in my experience, most businesses I’ve worked with 80% of their profits come from their top 20%, not necessarily 20 as a number, but their top 20% of their customers. And, and the reason for that quite often is because that was the right customer. They had the right problem. They actually matched up with the value that you can bring. I mean, you, you guys, again, as marketing consultants, you’ve, you’ve probably experienced customers that come to you or prospects that come to you. They have, they have a budget, they have money, they have a great need. They want to build an integrated system. you know, th they’re, they’re the, you probably look at them and go, oh, we can help them.
John Jantsch:
And we can help them fast because, you know, they have the problem. And I think that that is true for most businesses, if they go through and they look at their ideal customers, because not everybody is ideal, you can’t actually, you can’t actually make every customer successful. So it’s important that you choose, that, that ideal customer, the one that’s really suited or match for exactly what you’re trying to do. The other thing that I’ve experienced and why I say to really focus on that top 20 is because the, the opportunity cost of chasing all of this other business, that really is maybe not that profitable is not the right fit, is that it stops you from, from looking at that top 20% and, and asking yourself what percentage of them would do 10 times more business with me. If I actually had the right focus, what percentage or smaller percentage of that group would do a hundred times more business with me if I made that the total focus of my business. And I think that, that, that mindset, or that point of view about narrowing your focus, actually allows you to scale your business with your best customers, as opposed to going out and chasing more customers.
Ken Tucker:
Yeah. You know, I mean, I, I work with a lot of home services, home remodeling type contractors, and, you know, they always have like, you know, three or four core services that they want to offer. And it’s like, you know, but it’s like, where do I invest my marketing strategy and all that kind of stuff And it’s like, you know, you really should just pick the one that you’re the strongest in that you have the best reputation that you have your best customers in and double down on that, then try to, you know, siphon off and, and water down your, your marketing messaging and your clarity of what, what you’re offering and all of that kind of stuff. So it’s really interesting. I’m really interested to dive more into that. And as I learn more about what all you’ve put together,
Dan:
You know, John, some I found interesting is that this is a book about marketing, but you don’t talk about ways to create a better websites or generate more leads until near the end of the book. What was the, the idea behind that
John Jantsch:
Yeah. And I, and I do actually acknowledge that, that, you know, here you’re in chapter eight or wherever it is, I’m finally gonna just talk about, marketing. so I’m sure that some, I’m sure there will be some negative reviews at some point. So I thought this was a marketing book because when I wrote the referral engine and I spent the first half of the book saying, you know, the way to get more referrals is to be more referrable. and of course, a lot of people were coming there to get hacks and, you know, things that they could do to trick people into referring them. and it, it really, you know, you, you guys have heard me say this a million times. I mean, this is a strategy before tactics book. And what I really wanted to drive to drive home was that this idea of creating the customer success track really narrowing your focus to your top 20%, and then focusing on telling them, or at least communicating the story that they’re telling themselves, that messaging component, you know, that all has to be done before we start thinking about how do we use our website, all the work that done that we did in the first six chapters is now prepared us to actually create a website that is going to lead the customer journey that is going to tell the right story that is going to attract the more of that top 20% of your clientele.
John Janstch:
And so that’s really why I waited to that point, because in the end, this is a strategy book. Certainly I had to reveal the common tactics that many, many businesses use today and give you steps four and five are just loaded, in my opinion, with lots of things that you can actually then stimulate and scale your business. But I really wanted to wait, because, I wanted to spend as much possible time and energy and emphasis around this idea of strategies
Dan:
And that’s, you know, something and you alluded to in there. And I think it’s forgotten a lot of times is you have to have that foundation in place. That’s right. You have to have that first.
John Jantsch:
Yup. Yup. And I know, you know, a lot of people don’t want to hear that. They’re like, give me the 23 things that I can do today because I don’t want to do the 23 things you told me to do yesterday.
Dan:
There’s, there’s a, a point I think in, this book, I believe where you say, people don’t want what you sell, which I know the first time someone reads that you and I both know they’re going to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What do you mean People don’t want what I sell Like, isn’t that the whole point of marketing Isn’t this the ultimate marketing engine Like, what are you getting at there So, why don’t you speak a little bit to that if you’re getting at there, you bet.
John Jantsch:
So you guys are all marketing strategists for the most part, and I guarantee you not a single one of your clients has ever woken up and said, I think I’m going to go get some marketing strategy today, not a single one of my guarantee. Right. But they do wake up and they say, how come every time the phone rings, they’re asking for a lower price or how come my competitors are showing up in the map pack or the three-pack. And I’m not. I mean, those are the things that, that are keeping them awake at left at night. And so what I, I, you know, to finish that statement, nobody wants what we sell. They want their problems solved period. And the point of that is that that if all we’re communicating is, you know, here’s our solution and they have a connected our solution to the problem they’re trying to solve that we have a much harder job, but if we first communicate, I get you, I know what you’re struggling with.
John Janstch:
You know, a lot of our clients, people that you guys attract, they’re struggling with control of what’s going on. They’re struggling with confidence of what to do next. they’re, they’re struggling with, you know, clarity of what their message should be. And if we can help them understand that that’s their biggest challenge, then we can start talking about, oh, by the way, marketing strategy of a website that communicates, you know, how you’re different. Those are the solutions now that are going to solve those biggest problems that you have. And I, you know, our clients, our prospects get to define the problem they’re trying to solve in many cases. I mean, people make purchases of luxury goods and things, for example, not because they don’t have a car, that that runs, but they do it because of what it, what it means for them, what, what they get out of making that purchase.
John Janstch:
And so I think you could take this idea to really any type of product or service we have to, we have to connect with that. And, and obviously, you know, many, many, many people are out there expressing what they’re pro the problem. They’re getting solved by our businesses. And yet we’re, we’re not paying attention. We’re still talking about features and benefits and how long we’ve been in business and how big we are as opposed to really focusing on what they care about, which are usually the little, the little things that they’re not getting in their everyday life. Hmm.
Jen:
John, the notion of storytelling and marketing is, you know, pretty standard advice in the last few years, but you introduce, introduce the idea of narrative versus storytelling. So can you explain,
John Janstch:
So maybe I may need to define the distinction for folks, but you’re right. Storytelling is like, you know, it’s the, it’s the hot thing, even though it’s been around for, you know, a hundred years, but, you’d think every marketer in the last five years is who created the idea of storytelling. and there’s no question that telling stories, showing, your, your, your softer side. I mean, letting people know who you really are. There’s, there’s tons of benefits from that. But again, a lot of what people do in storytelling is, is they tell their story and they tell it in a very linear fashion that hopefully move somebody along. And, the difference between narrative is it’s how the story is broken up and told we’ve all seen examples of the movie where,
You know, it starts close, shot on a car, chase going through a city. There’s no subtext, nothing. It’s just like, this is happening all of a sudden. And then, you know, the car wrecks and crashes into something cutaway to the main character in seventh grade. And it’s, you know, it’s like, wait, that was the ending of the story that sucked me in, you know, to the story. And now you’re going to fill in the blanks. Now you’re going to develop the character. Now I’m going to understand, you know, what’s going to lead to that. And I think that’s the idea behind narrative is that it is, it gives people the ability to tell the story, to experience the story in a way that’s more dramatic than simply just going through first. We started the business 10 years ago, and then we, you know, which so many people do. There’s just no drama in that.
John Jantsch:
There’s no impact in that. And nobody, nobody, it’s very hard to suck somebody into that story. And so narrative really does start a lot more of, or the concept of narrative starts with the idea of cutting the story up in a way that that’s going to allow you to grow, give the most dramatic punch, you know, right in the beginning, because that’s what people are suffering from the problem they’re trying to solve the emotions around what they’re trying to do. You know, that’s what we have to connect with. And I think that the idea of narrative storytelling, gives us that ability.
Jen:
That’s very interesting. It sounds like a Tarantino films were supposed to embrace her inner Tarantino, I guess. Right.
Dan:
It definitely sounds like it’s in a good way that it’s less formulaic, which is nice, right Like if there’s one thing that I personally can’t stand, it’s the storytelling that says, first, you have to do this. Then you have to do this. Then you have to do, it’s not a recipe everybody’s different. So this allows you to
John Jantsch:
Great point is, I mean, if, if we all went to a movie and watched that movie, we would all come out. Even if we all love that movie, we would love it for different reasons. And, and I think that that’s kind of what, what our customers and prospects, do is, you know, the customer journey. It’s nice to say they go to this stage and then this stage in this stage, it doesn’t happen that way. I mean, people come with, you know, so many different avenues and so many different things you’re trying to do. They’re different, they’re in different stages of life. And so I think that it does have to be a little more Lego issue if you will, to allow people to tell themselves the story, that, that, that you’re putting out there.
Ian:
And it sounds like you’re almost starting with the transformation presenting what they could look like that at least in your analogy of the movie, right, where it shows you, this is what happened. you suggest that content in a longer a tactic, but, when it’s used correctly, it’s the voice of strategy. you know, how should a business use content Yeah,
John Janstch:
Well, so it’s couple of years ago, I was saying content is there, you know, 10 years ago we were saying, content is king. That was the marketer. You know, then I moved to air because frankly you really can’t anymore. It’s very difficult to do much in the world of marketing, you know, without content. And that’s even if your transactions are done right across the desk, people start their journey. They research, you know, they need sales materials. I mean, it’s all really content, video, email, social posting. If we all put that in the bucket of content, then, then you pretty quickly come to realize that you can’t move the needle much without a focus on content. But unfortunately what that’s done for a lot of people is just, you know, opened up the dump truck. You know, it’s like, it’s just, okay, we got to have content.
Dan:
Let’s just go pay people to write a bunch of content. And, and what I’m trying to get people to do is say, look, you can actually do less if you have a strategic approach to it. So when we develop what problem we solve or what our core point of difference is, a lot of our content focus needs to be on telling that story, expanding that story, understanding that people need to hear different things in know, and then like, and trust and, and, and try and bind, repeat, and refer. They need different content because they have different questions and different objectives as they move through those stages. And so if we just build that framework for our content, as opposed to just saying, well, it’s Monday, I got a blog again, it’s going to be much more effective for us. And so in, in that point of view, it becomes the voice of telling strategy strategy. It’s not enough to have a clever saying that becomes your core message that goes on the, you know, above the fold on your website and goes on your business cards. You, you want to take that, the fact that you develop that core strategy and really build content and story around it.
Ian:
Awesome. And can I ask one more question
John Jantsch:
I don’t know, Ian, are you out of your question tokens there or,
Ian:
Yeah, I might be actually, if the panel cuts me off, I know I am. one of, one of the things that comes to mind is that, what we’ve found as, as certified duct tape marketing consultants is that, often people that come to us, they’re already sold on the idea of strategy first, or they think they need that. but once they get into it, they’re like I can’t do all this. It’s too complicated. When, when I saw, that you were bringing out this book and as we’ve talked more, the one question that occurs to me as a marketing consultant and for my clients and prospects is once they read this, is it the type of book that kind of is guided enough that they won’t need help from a consultant Or does it kind of get them so far And then they’re like, I need help. This is too many pieces again, but it gives me the structure to understand what we’re doing.
John Jantsch:
I mean, I suppose there will be the occasional superhuman freak that can read this book and will actually do what’s in it. But, that will be such a small number, that, I think there will always need somebody who let’s face it. An outside perspective is valuable. Accountability is, is valuable because that’s, that’s the biggest challenge that have, is nobody’s knocking on their door saying, did we do this You know, did we move this forward So, you know, at the very least those are going to be components, but also, as we know, there are a lot of tactical things in this that they shouldn’t do. they’re you can’t abdicate strategy, but you should, as a mom or as a business owner, be delegating a great deal of what is done in the name of marketing for your business. Once you have a plan, and once you have confidence in somebody who’s actually going to be able to deliver on that plan. so I think that, I, I think that, as I said, there may be some people that take this and run with it, but I think the, the real goal of this as a marketing consultant would be that somebody understand this enough to actually be a better buyer of your services.
Ian:
That’s awesome. And nice to know that there’s still some jobs stability for the people on this panel. Thanks. So you,
John Jantsch:
You guys are also brilliant. I can’t imagine, that, there won’t be there, there there’s continuous stream of folks knocking on your doors, partly because of the need for what we do is so huge as well, though.
Ken Tucker:
Yeah, well, you know, and, and we’re in a period of transformation, just in terms of the way people are thinking about executing their business, the way people are now buying and they’re buying differently, you know, and it’s really, I mean, it sounds to me like this is a very timely book. It’s not about COVID, but it’s, but, but we are in a situation where there is transformation in the way that we’re thinking about buying and the way that, we need to deliver products and services differently than maybe we ever have before.
John Janstch:
Yeah. And I think we’re, who knows when the window will close, but I think we’re in a very wide open window now where people considering a change, like never before, because of, you know, what, what kind of happened over the last years. So, I mean, I think you’ve got a lot of opportunity right now to, to explore some new avenues and to, and to innovate in the way that you’re delivering what you’re delivering.
Ken Tucker:
Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. And I think that the, you know, that’s a, that’s a great opportunity for many businesses, you know, and, and if they’re smart, they’re going to seize the opportunity. I, unfortunately, I think a lot of businesses, you know, they’re either so stressed, you know, because of what’s been happening or they’re so challenged because they’re so busy, you know, that, you know, we really need to find a way to help them leverage, you know, the great ideas and concepts that you’re putting forward with this book. Well,
John Jantsch:
And, and, and some of, you know, some of what you can do with your marketing skills is helping find people to, I mean, that’s, that’s the, that’s the new problem, especially skilled labor shortage.
Ken Tucker:
Yeah, absolutely. so I want to just open it up to the panel and let you guys see if you have any other questions for John.
Paul:
Yeah. If I, if I can jump in here, something, you said a little bit earlier, cannon Ian’s question and about the marketing funnel being kind of limiting, and the good thing is it’s a good way to conceptualize and visualize that customer journey, but in the real world, it’s a convoluted mess. And do you think that has gotten even worse now with all these different channels
John Jantsch:
Well, I think there’s no question it’s gotten more complex for people. I don’t think it has to be a, I mean, I think that your guys’ job probably, could move to, to, to tell them what they don’t need to do, in some cases, but, you know, the reason I’ve picked on the marketing funnel, it’s not because it’s not an effective first half of, of, you know, marketing. It’s just, when people don’t think about it as a, you know, a part of a greater whole, then I think it’s very limiting and, and they just, you know, once they get the order, it’s like, I don’t have to do anything else. And I think that that’s, that’s not every business, but I think a lot of people that really have that funnel mentality, that’s really, it it’s like get the sale.
John Jantsch:
and so it’s, to me, it’s, it’s sort of short term thinking. I think also if you think about the stages of consideration, you know, awareness, trial or the, you know, some of the things that have always been used, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s almost like, you know, it’s all about demand creation and demand like shoving in a way. And I think that where we are today and why I’ve chosen the very specific words for the marketing hourglass in Germany, is that I think it’s less about creating demand and more about organized behavior. And that’s what those stages are meant to be sort of behavior behavioral aspects that I think we, as consumers, you can use your own example, want to go through with the companies we do business with. And I think that that’s, that’s so it’s, it’s somewhat semantics. It’s somewhat, but it’s, but it’s mostly just a point of view about helping a customer achieve their goals, as opposed to just trying to cram something down their throat.
Dan:
One question I think I would have about, directing the customer, actually directing the client probably more is, I don’t know about you guys, but sometimes I’ve more than once, and it’s just been this year more than any other year. I don’t know why I get in with a client. And it seems like, well, we have a marketing problem, and then you get in and you’re like, this is sort of a marketing problem and sort of a sales problem and sort of a customer service problem and sort of a leadership problem. What kind of advice do you have when it’s, regardless of whether marketing sales, whatever we are to use this, you know, the tools that you have in this book to really identify these challenges sooner because sometimes I think the danger that happens with all of us is we get maybe two to three months into a relationship. And we don’t realize that, whoa, I don’t think I have the tools in my toolbox right now to solve this, but I do know some people who do, how can this book kind of help identify some of those things earlier on
John Jantsch:
I think that a concept that, that certainly is in this book, but is one that you guys are familiar with because I’ve been working on it for years. I, I, I I’ve used time and time again, very early on, even in the, frankly I’ve used it a time or two in the discovery phase before somebody became a client, introducing the marketing hourglass and, and just kind of talking through the idea of what might go in those stages that they have those stages. but, you know, if you think about know, like, and trust, I mean, that’s marketing, try and buy a sales, repeat and refer is, is service in a lot of ways. So you can start having that kind of umbrella conversation and dependent upon, you know, the players involved or, or, you know, what the business is, where the business is today.
John Jantsch:
that’s a very easy way to start identifying, oh, we never thought about that, or no, we don’t have anything for that for that. So you start seeing the gaps and they’re always in the customer experience. I they’re always after the sale or where the, where the massive gaps are, and of course they have nothing in place for referral. So I think it positions you as a strategist to start that, start that conversation with them. And maybe just maybe, the problem is so, so, so big that, that, that you can’t solve it. But I think that it does allow you to start interjecting yourself in the, in the conversation that says, you know, no matter how great our marketing is, if you, if one’s going out the back door, every time one comes in the front door, you know, we’re not gonna make any progress. So set the expectations, you know, at, at that level, before you go into an agreement,
Ian:
And if you don’t know where your operational gaps are, just hire a sales and marketing consultant, and they will produce so much business for you that all of a sudden your operational, gaps will suddenly appear to you. So you’ll just make it up on volume.
Ken Tucker:
Awesome. Well, John, thanks so much. I’m really excited to, you know, to get this book and dig more into it. now you have a pre-launch companion course with six video lessons and some worksheets, on the core topics. my understanding is that that’s free for anybody who pre pre-orders the book, is
John Jantsch:
That correct Yeah. If you, if you to visit the ultimate marketing engine.com, the website for the book, you’ll see something that says, get the companion course, click on that. It’ll give you the instructions on, you know, you can, pre-order the book anywhere. Then you come back and there’ll be a little form you can fill out. And that will give you access to the, the course. And it is, it is six videos, but I’ve also created. And, and, you know, I have a host of, of materials, worksheets and things that, can help people work through the book as well. So you’ll get a sampling of a few of those. And so if you’re listening to this, before September 21st, 2021, then go, pre-order the book now. And, and you can start consuming some of the content right away.
Ken Tucker:
Awesome. Cool. Yeah. and then also, how can people find out more about you, your books and also the duct tape marketing
John Jantsch:
Pretty much figure out everything I’ve been doing for the last couple of decades@ducttapemarketing.com. So it’s D U C T T A P E marketing.com.
Ken Tucker:
Okay. Awesome. All right. Thanks so much, John. look forward to seeing you in person here one of these days soon. Gosh, don’t we all, I’m excited that you’re our first, repeat guests. That’s pretty awesome. So thank you so much for your time and really enjoyed it. No,
John Jantsch:
My pleasure. Great seeing you guys. All right. Take care. Bye.